Phone posting at bath time

Ironically I did manage to correct "/army level" but missed the front bit of total incomprehensible gibberish!

"You forgot operational/army level" if that helps

What about Corps?

They're the manoeuvre element of the operational level game

Gentlemen, like an expert needle sharpener, you're making my point for me. 

Surely they just enhance the point?

For *making* it you need a needle maker!

On the topic, you can go very deep if you want - either into fiction based games with established backgrounds (W40k etc), or into historical games where you dig deeeeeep into the period for a long time (recent 1866 Wargaming in History springs to mind, well done chaps! Or Bruce Weigle around the similar period)  or even your own imaginations.

OR with the huge breadth you can scream around periods and systems and scales like a loon, leaving a trail of half finished projects and only mildly creased rule sets behind you

I celebrate both - a hobby that can be either is a pretty neat thing!

Quote from: toxicpixie on 19 September 2017, 11:01:55 PM
They're the manoeuvre element of the operational level game

You can tell where my interest lies - not in military organisation or theory. Get em on the table, have a scrap and lose.

Looks like another company might be shutting it's doors, Forlorn Hope have posted on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ForlornHopeGames/

Dang, that's a shame :/

Sounds like it's a going concern, just too much work on stuff he doesn't want to do? Shame, I'd just had some excellent samurai dwarves from them!

Another company I've never heard of, probably because it does faeries and the like.

They do some French Indian War stuff and some Chinese I think?  Nice sculpts as well.

From a business/marketing perspective, a Recession like we have had that spans more than a handful of years causes consolidation and shut downs in any industry. The exception being New industries/segments.

Wargaming miniatures is a mature market, meaning that growth of consumers is directly related to population growth and EXTERNAL factors. External factors being things like Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit, Kingdom of Heaven or blockbuster films or television shows bringing new people into the hobby.

Until last Spring, I taught martial arts. The original Karate Kid movie years ago caused a 12X initial signup of new students for one 3 month period and 6X the following 3 month period for our organization. Nothing has brought this growth back so we are essentially pre-Kickstarter for the last 9 years or so with actual enrollment declines of 20% over "normal years" now. There is more to the story than just the Recession but it definitely effects expenditures.

With wargaming, it cannot be emphasized enough how much video games and now phone/tablet games have effected the market. You also have mass online combat games that require daily if not hourly interaction over time. There are many such games plus the Farmville types for those that prefer more timid gaming. Couple this with games that mimic offline wargaming well (DBA Online and FoG electronic releases are prime examples) and we have additional competition.

I happen to own some ready to play games as well. Fantasy Flight: X-Wing, Wings of Glory, Sails of Glory, also LotR Hexgame, HeroClix, etc. No modeling needed except for terrain and tables, etc. Quick to get into plus available at book, game and big box retailers (Target). For me they supplement my hobby, not detract from it. For others they supplant raw figure purchases.

I am not sure how much skirmish gaming is effecting the hobby. I think they make great intros to bigger games. Many I know newly starting get attracted to historical through skirmish and many move on to bigger battle games.

GW has changed their approach to very easy, easy and light medium complexity. They have small intro sets, medium intro sets and large sets for the hard corps buyer. They still charge too much for one off and specialty sets but it has become more affordable. More importantly, they attract the youngest players now just like Fantasy Flight has managed. GW stores have free paint clinics weekly and you even get a free figure. Books are published for reading in their genres too. I came back because my son prefers the shiny stuff but will play historical too, just less often. GW has newer leadership and it us working for them. They also have one of the best distribution networks around to include company stores.

Back to 10mm. From being semi-active to active again in Ancients/Medievals and about to be more active in Napoleonics again, I noticed an odd lull in the hobby. I attribute a lot of it to missteps in rules editions or petering out of new launches. FoG had gone in a poor direction with V2 for many including me. V3 wants us to re-invest in expensive revised army list books. Being that I dropped FoG and am now involved with Mortem At Gloriam, I won't be coming back to FoG and I wonder what the result is for remaining adherents? MeG is bringing players out of the woodwork here in Texas, even some that dropped the genre decades ago.

With Napoleonics, Napoleon at War has just been reprinted. General D'armee seems to be getting good press and at least regionally there is renewed interest again in the genre after a long lapse.

Bolt Action brought a lot of people over from Sci-fi. I actually prefer Chain of Command for this level of play. But I again prefer big battle when possible. New gamers seem to lack the patience or the desire to paint up figures. Myself, I am heavily involved with my 10 and 13 year old with their sports and Scouting activities. Luckily my son likes to miniature game too. We are still working at painting though....😉

I talked with a GW manager. He stated that GW is a lifestage company with customers entering, exiting and re-entering multiple times in their lifespan. I fit into this as I bought in the 80s and 90s, went away and came back with my son.
 
So, I believe that we are about to be on an upswing due to better economics but I am also sure that the industry is so fragmented with competitors that more will still shut down or sell. Quality sells though, I really cherish my Pendrakens😎

My take is price hikes are necessary. I prefer the self run New release incubator you did with Mongols over external online venues like Kickstarter. So, consider raising prices enough to get you guys making a decent living. One competitor of yours is almost 30% higher and still gets customers. I am not suggesting GW hikes but you have to charge enough to be sustainable, grow and pay yourselves too. The benefit would be more releases too for us and less stress for you; possibly being able to hire more so that ownership focuses on planning and strategy. And your purchase of Blitzkrieg Commander was the right move as well.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I liked the idea of a Kick-starter in martial arts training 

  Reminds me of the couple of acres joke.

Having a retrospective read-through.
A few thoughts on the main points arising.

Kickstarter:

Has very little interest to me, and seems an excellent way of spending half your life glued to a screen where a fraction of the pages are of any interest.
Having said that, it's clearly a thing and a thing that is changing the shape of our hobby world.
Working in Information Technology, it seems to reflect the economics of my day jobs:
Companies that make little profit, and live form quarter to quarter on venture capital, employee goodwill and state handouts. - Everybody hoping they'll be "in at the bottom" at the next Microsoft / Google / Amazon.

Games Workshop

Economically back form the dead, but their repositioning has taken them out of scope of my google searches.
They're selling a different style of stuff. Have they taken their legions of fanboys with them, or recruited new ones?
Did the fanboys ever cross over to "historical" in significant numbers - I was always sceptical of this promise of new blood (for the blood gods). - [see what I did there].

Skirmish / Saga Size

Like Kickstarter, I think this style of gaming is here to stay, and likely to remain the mainstream.
Several sellers are perfecting a model to monetize these games with regular big releases, and a period of "support" for the successful ones.
Combined with Kickstarter, you gave the Crack Pipe of the gaming world.

Consider the advantages for the manufacturer / seller.
Controlled, finite size figure ranges, easy to collect or fit in a starter box.
Simple to author / learn rules.
Infinite potential for new games based on a very similar engine - just ensure your fluff doesn't sail too near a big dog's Intellectual Property.

28mm

Another thing I have found no use for whatsoever.
I associate it with ridiculously foreshortened table distances, tiny units, beautiful painting.
I can't think of one good set of rules developed specifically for 28mm (I'm prepared to be corrected).

My current #1 frustration is planning out the show season, and checking manufacturer's websites.
There's a new company with figures, can I use them? They don't even say what scale/size the stuff is.
28mm is the default, and the rest of us are working in the margins.

The good news is that my marginal scales of choice are each supported by at least one dedicated and long term manufacturer.
I'm confident their ranges will still be available in 12 months time if I wish to expand.
Hats off to Pendraken, Peter Pig, Magister Militum, Splintered Light, Essex, Heroics and Ros and Baccus 6mm.

Competition

I've no doubt that computer games and boardgames are fishing in the same pool of potential customers.
Mini-games, board games and computer games have all upped their game during the last 20 years.
It's hardly surprising that computer games have made the most progress (if you like that sort of thing), given the leaps and bounds of technology.
I've recently purchased a couple of Euro Games, and again I'm hugely impressed by the advances in: component quality and succinct and easy to play rules compared to the old Avalon Hill type offerings.

Tabletop gaming started with a huge lead in presentation and appearance.
We shouldn't be surprised that other styles of game are catching up.

The question I cannot answer is whether this competition is shrinking our market, or whether the pie is expanding at a tremendous rate.
I do see massive increases in professionalism and accessibility for all sectors of the gaming hobby.
I think one effect has been to squeeze out the "gentleman amateur" manufacturer, who might work on a small but otherwise inaccessible range of figures during weekend hours, while maintaining a day job.

Greying of the Hobby / (Pesky) Kids Today

I think there is truth in the greying of our particular sector of gaming - doing mainly historical stuff using miniatures.

A serious look at the young man of today shows massive changes compared to my own childhood.

Far more different interesting things competing for his time.
Combined with the demise of a number of craft based hobbies.

Seemingly higher disposable income (or perhaps the bank of Mum and Dad).
Young teenagers are certainly treated as fully fledged consumers now, not just spenders of pocket money.

All the above draws them toward the Pre-pack / Full Service / One stop shop model of game marketing.
Buy contrast, we greyhairs (and nohairs) are comfortable with  do it yourself model where we shop around for figures, rules, tools, terrain and source material.
WRG didn't do "fluff" because the library had a history section, and Vauxhall / GM / Opal have allowed the copyright on a Churchill / Sherman / Blitz to lapse.

Often a lot less space for his "stuff":
The lack of square feet and storage in a modern home (and often the lack of a dining room) is likely to be influential in preferring computer games.
Those boardgames also pack away quite tidily - compare with our recent chats about storage issues.

They'll generally get interested if their friends are doing it, or if there's a major film creating interest.
I'd be kickstartering a game about superherooes if it wasn't for litiginous publishers and their IP issues.
A cool £100K for the game designer who accurately forecasts whatever film genre that will topple superheroes.

Where Next

Mainstream will be Computer Games followed by boardgames.
Miniatures will be a fairly large (and potentially expensive) niche.

28mm and Saga / Skirmish size / Full service games will be default miniature style
Other scales and game scopes will be a relatively inexpensive niche (Unless you go for the 12' x 6' table).

We will inhabit a niche within a niche.
If Gaming as a whole grows, that niche may also expand.

It doesn't seem like a niche for the mainstream young gamer through.
Perhaps the target market will be the Boomers and Gen-Xers who grew up in a tactile analogue world.

Steve Holmes writes that WRG didn't do "fluff" because the library had a history section


I agree that WRG didn't do fluff, but I doubt that it had anything to do with what was or was not in the local library. Today the information revolution has increased available reference by a factor of what? - your guess is as good as mine. We have more information now but even though everything you need is out there with little effort, it is still more effort than having everything presented in one package. The really telling factor however is that the all in one package removes  the effort of evaluation and decision. Why bother to research rules, order of battles, figure availability/compatibility. uniforms/equipment, suitable base sizes etc, and then make a decision, when it can come in one box.

Interesting post Steve but not entirely my experience. So, some thoughts your post raised.

Kickstarter:

I've backed six so far. All have delivered (late in most cases!) except the last which has delivered electronic versions of the rules but printed copies are still outstanding. I'm pretty sure none of them would have seen the light of day without the kickstarter model of funding.

Games Workshop

Apart from the odd pot of paint I haven't bought anything from them since they dropped support for Warmaster - the last thing they did that I was interested in.

That said they are the most visible face of wargaming for the general public.


Skirmish / Saga Size

The first skirmish games I remember playing were of "Retinue" in the early and mid 1980s so skirmish is nothing new but the emphasis on big battle rather than skirmish is certainly changing.

28mm

Extortionately expensive (IMNSHO) as they are, they make sense if you are only collecting a dozen or so for a game. Beautifully painted and set amongst detailed and (for what they are) inexpensive MDF scenery they provide a spectacle in the, as you say, increasingly compact space available.

Competition

Why spend time painting figures and pushing lumps of lead or resin around when computer games will put you in an ever more realistic and accurate simulation of the real thing.

Currently trying to avoid the siren song of "War Thunder" at the moment

Board games, especially Eurogames, appeal to a much wider range of people than war games do.

The big competition that board games, computer games, role-play games and the GW/ Warlord etc. style figure games provide is that they are increasingly attracting female players which gives you a much larger customer base.

Greying of the Hobby / (Pesky) Kids Today

More of my children's generation (30s) are gamers than those of my generation ever were.

Board games, collectable card games, paper and pencil RPGs, computer games of all sorts as well as figure games of various sorts.

Where Next

As knowledge of and views on war evolve and those of us born during or just after "The War" fade away I think historical gaming will fade, at least for the moment, but we are a blood thirsty and savage race at heart and I expect military themed games to be around for the foreseeable future.

Shared experience is a big factor in the games being played by those half my age and under. Look at the take up of Massively Multiplayer computer games like World of Warcraft, World of Tanks, Elder Scrolls Online and the like.

Excellent response.

I write form my own point of view, and have explored only a fraction of the gaming options out there.
It's fascinating to see alternate perspectives.

You've jogged my memory on 2 counts:

I had forgotten that I also own Warmaster - so am a GW customer.

It's amazing how the popular films of one's formative years overlap with historic and gaming interests.

For me that was repeats (Often black and white) of Sword and Sandal classics and World War 2 films.
There were plenty of westerns as well, but they didn't appeal in quite the same way.

The cherry on the cake was Waterloo getting televised several consecutive Christmas afternoons, just after we got a colour telly.
(That musical Captain Von Trapp was the spitting image of the Duke of Wellington).

A couple of interesting and thoughtful posts

Intersting points, but one confuses me a little.

If you have no interest whatsoever in 28mm how would you know if there are any or no rules designed specifically for 28mm?

🤔

Quote from: Chad on 01 March 2019, 10:12:15 PM
Intersting points, but one confuses me a little.

If you have no interest whatsoever in 28mm how would you know if there are any or no rules designed specifically for 28mm?

🤔

Because you can't escape them, they're everywhere?