OK,

Not your favourite or your pet hate...

But rationally, and all things considered;

1.  Which are the best rules you've ever played. 
2.  WHY are they the best?
3.  Which are the worst rules you've ever played. 
4.  WHY are they the worst?

For me...

1.  Fire & Fury

2.  Simple, elegant, exceptioanlly well written and slightly unusual and intuitive turn sequence.  They model the battle friction of the ACW almost perfectly and give an astonishingly good and satisfying game as well. 

3.  Flames of War

4.  Fails utterly to simulate WWII battle friction in any way.  Simplistic yet confused gameplay that really can't make up its mind what its supposed to be.  Stupid unit classifications and 'fantasy' 'special abilities'.  Cash cow publication ethic that favours eye candy over any other consideration.  Unplayably awful.

 

Not sure if I can qualify what are the best set , but the rules I have most fun playing are

Ancients...Armati  just a nice set of rules easy to learn and quite a steep learning curve once the fatigue rules are added

WW2 Toss up here between CD, Spearhead and Crossfire ...Mainly cos we had some great campign games using all 3 systems  Spearhead probably the least fave of those 3 due to some of the overpowerful artillery

Sci Fi Dirtside 2...Just a great system..hopefully number 3 will do away with the chits

Worst Rules

Hmm hard one this...DBM probably for ancients just didnt enjoy myself  dont like all the micro measuring at all just a badly written set, the least they could have done was given away a free protractor with it...Sadly FOG seems to be going down the same route from the games I've seen being played

Challanger 2.....Why oh Why did I say I would give it a go!....just awful...like watching paint dry!...too many modifiers to be honest......just too slow to play

Warhammer Great War...Should have listenend to my inner self and gone no where near it...just doesnt seem to give a fair reflection of WW1 combat...same as all  Warhammer series to be honest


Well thats it...I am sure there are many more sets outthere that I have enjoyed or hated over the years, but maybe I have just blanked out the bad ones and would hope they would just go away

Yep Fire & Fury & Crossfire were exceptionally good

Good ground scale and time scale that you could visualise from playing a game to reading that battle in a chapter of a book. All big picture stuff with brigades and divisions and only a few memorable factors to keep track off. Because it was period specific, i.e. ACW it did not try to pretend to cover a host of other wars as some rules do so and thus end up bland games with tables and tables of factors for every eventuality

Crossfire was also terrific in covering iWWII nfantry v infantry company/battalion fights as it really made you use forces in depth rather than some rule sets that force you to deploy linear in WWII to max firepower. Crossifre really brough out the importance of recce, reserves and tryinog to outflank a position. Trouble was when added in tanks, indirect fire etc it all seemed to loose it elegance.

It follows from this that rules without groundscale, without an order of battle that is reflected in the rules/history, not being period specific can so easily end up with bland and sometimes poor rules. Having said that even rules you do not like can have a nuggett of an idea that is worth remembering.

1) Warmaster Ancients

2) They are a great set of war GAME rules, relatively simple and straightforward to get into but the game mechanics give quite subtle results.  They are always playable and we always get a result.

3) DBx

4) I just can't get my head around the concept of "fast knights" or "eXceptional psiloi" killing things if the dice are equal except on a tuesday if the knights are going backwards  . 

I've been using GW rules for longer than some of you guys have been alive haha

They're the most versatile set around and so easy to use,someone playing fantasy one day could pick up ecw the next and with minimum fuss have an enjoyable game,as i always say with any rules-you get out what you put in.
Except for the DB lot

1.  Which are the best rules you've ever played.

a) BKC, CWC, FWC which I currently play
b) Forlorn Hope
c) Wings of War

2.  WHY are they the best?

a) Just because of their simplicity, and the fact that the rules don't take too long to learn - however the subtleties of the command system take quite a while to master to get the best out of your chosen army.  Having army lists in the same book does it for me too - no need for supplement after supplement. Apart from FWC there are no 'super-armies' either!

b) Just because it brings back fond memories of games with good friends. Its not a particularly good set of rules.

c) Fast and Furious and good fun the more players you can get involved!

3.  Which are the worst rules you've ever played.

a) F.O.W

b) DBR,M etc

c) Polemos

4.  WHY are they the worst?

a) Any rule set where the Italian's are an 'uber-armee' is utter nonsense. I have seen grown men 'get-off' on loop-holing their own siblings lack of understanding of the rules and have seen Allied players completely bemoan defeat after defeat at the hands of Tiger Aces who appear all too frequently for my liking.

b) You need a Law Degree to understand the rules

c) I simply cannot get to grips with these rules at all. Played once and immediately ebayed.

QuoteAny rule set where the Italian's are an 'uber-armee' is utter nonsense.

Er... Romans?  I think the old legions were pretty effective in their day 

QuoteI have seen grown men 'get-off' on loop-holing their own siblings lack of understanding of the rules and have seen Allied players completely bemoan defeat after defeat at the hands of Tiger Aces who appear all too frequently for my liking.

I suspect this is more about people than rules

Best for me at the moment would be Cold War Commander and Blitzkrieg Commander, I think I might have Nick to thank for putting me onto Blitzkrieg. Both a bit abstract but in a good way. Axles and Alloys II for a free game is a ton of fun and makes a good beer and pretzels game especially if you like a bit of a wager on the result. Still playing Dreamblade on a regular basis and enjoying it every time, if you can find someone else (or preferably a few players) who want to get heavily into it it's like chess with chance and powers, brilliant. Easy girl-friendly gameplay so it's one you can potentially encourage a gamephobic wife, kid or non-gamer into.

Worst is Necromunda. Great premise, great background, great idea but the way it handles shooting is absurd. Basically if you get shot you are pretty likely to roll around on the floor for several turns before either being ok or not. The problem with that is that it doesn't in any way represent reality and looks even sillier when you see the size of the weapons they are lugging around. Call every wounding shot a killing shot though and you've got a pretty good game. Until your gang develops and you see how wildly unbalanced it is for a campaign. Still, for atmosphere and setting it's a good one.

Top Deck is a game about carrier battles, it's so badly written it contradicts itself on nearly every aspect of the rules, takes forever to resolve the most basic thing and best of all it requires a third player who has no role other than to act a referee for the whole mess. Played it once, ritually burned it with a friend on his BBQ. It burned for some time due to it having ten million tokens. I doubt this was ever playtested in any way before hitting the shelves.

DBA/DBM - Just poor design from start to finish. You couldn't possibly play a game from just the rulebook so that's a big failure right from the off. The unofficial guide explains the things the authors couldn't. You can play rock, paper, scissors without buying a ton of miniatures. Anything derived from the rules is equally poor. Massively popular though so someone out there must be enjoying it.

The best?

Peter Young's "Charge!" - not because of any great virtue of the rules themselves, but because they were good enough that the group I was in probably played them 30 out of 50 weeks a year for three years running, and knew them so well that we had gone past thinking abut the rules and simply though about our strategy and tactics -- measuring and rolling were unconscious; we knew the implications of our decisions without working through the rules because we had the experience we needed.

If the best rules make the best games, then Charge! for sure.

I am getting slowly to that point with Blitzkrieg Commander, but it will take a long time.

The worst?  There have been a few I have not played twice, but even then at least it was a game.

1.  Warmaster Ancients/Medieval currently get my vote as the best
2.  They got me back into gaming after 20 year gap, gaming is fun again
3.  WRG 6th edition Ancients
4.  They attracted every rules lawyer/cheat and ended up with me selling up and ditching the hobby. Maybe something to do with the mid/late eighties but virtually every gamer i met then was obsessed with winning at all costs and no regard to historical accuracy.

Best ever: Sharp Practice II, Chain of Command, ADLG, FoG, Pulp Alley
Why: They just suck you in, even when I lose the game (often) I come away happy, and I rarely have a headache after a game

Worst: Has to be 7th Edition Ancients and the DB(X) stable of games. Odd as I really like ADLG which is similar to DBM but does not confuse.
Why: Just far too many confusing and contradictory aspects to the rules, very often finishing a game feeling cheated somehow (and its wasn't my opponents they are all great guys). Headache factor just too high to be healthy, once actually physically sick (although that may have been dodgy prawns).

Quote from: wolfkind on 26 March 2010, 04:34:52 PM
I've been using GW rules for longer than some of you guys have been alive haha

Considering the forum members I know, or have actually met, I doubt that very much! A lot of us remember when Games Workshop was a good shop to visit as ther stocked a lot of the US manufacurers you had trouble getting elsewhere and White Dwarf was an interesting read!

The rules I enjoy playing the most may not be the best but I like them 
Rapid Fire WW2
The reason is we play a lot of the scenarios as described in the supplement books and you use forces which are relevant to the scenario so in my opinion allows you to get a feel for what the commanders in the filed had to face

The worst set is F.O.W
I found them too complicated for what they were trying to achieve and were very easy to be abused by the power gaming fraternity.
One of the rules that irritated me was one that allowed observation aircraft to pre measure ranges of anti aircraft guns making them practically immune to being shot down.

Call me old fashioned but I like KISS rules (keep it simple stupid)

BBB - simple to understand, enable me to play the largest battles in my favourite historical period, well supported with scenarios, every game played so far has had an unpredictable and nail-biting finish.

DBM - inexplicable and convoluted English, immensely dull and did I mention, they are immensely dull.

Best: Bluecher, Maurice, Muskets and Tomahawks, Sword and Spear, Rommel*

Worst: DB*, Empire, FoG, any game that caters mostly to the tournament scene.

* NYA, but in the latest playtest version, really enjoyable.

Best: blitzkrieg commander II

reason: Still the number 1 game in our group after so many years. Always gives enjoyaable games


worst: chain reaction/swordplay from Two hour wargames

reason: "i have to roll for what now" just rolling rolling rolling all day long. Some swear by it, others like me don't like it!


Honourable mention (and best rules before i started using BKC) : LOTR strategy battle game

reason: in my opinion the best skirmish game ever made! doing hit and run attacks with my rohirrim was akways enjoyable!

Best would be a long list and would include some that others here have voted as worst!

Worst would be an even longer list and include some that others here think are best.

Personally I'm just glad people are finding games to play and enjoy, whatever rules they use!

I suspect the best I've played have been my own SYW rules. The balance of the different armies, all based on a similar idea of how troops were to be used, meant that I could be quite economical and trim; little need for tons of microrules. (modest cough)
The worst may have been the set of WWII rules I began with in the 70s. I don't think there was a single tactical decision to be made at any level, and morale didn't get a look in. But honorable mention must be made for the WRG corpus; wordy, unhistorical, often dam' nearly unintelligibly written, one edition declaring the previous completely wrong without ever acknowledging guilt for previous blunders, and the way they encouraged players to command an army of 50, 000 but think like a sergeant, not a general...bad old days!

As has been suggested I think rules wise one persons trash is another persons treasure - if they work for you then play them, if they don't then move on to something that does work 

For me personally anything by Two Fat Lardies (especially ITLSU) is great. Also wished I had tried General Quarters 1&2 about 20 odd years ago....for me they are by far the most elegant set of C20 naval rules I have ever played and I am now in the middle of a C20 naval "renaissence" having only first played them about 3 years ago. Also Volley and Bayonet for C18/19 games must get a mention....for some reason I really like them...played Cowpens/Guilford Courthouse and some other battles and I have a whale of time every time we play V&B.

I haven't got any one set of rules that I particularly dislike, but there are a couple of sets that I have tried once over the years that I would not be in any hurry to go back to.

   

This is real thread necromancy 
Some changes in my views
1.  2010: Warmaster Ancients/Medieval currently get my vote as the best
Now: Pike and Shotte/Black Powder/Hail Caesar
2.  Warmaster: They got me back into gaming after 20 year gap, gaming is fun again
Warlords offerings: for me these have built on the already great Warmaster system and improved dramatically. fun games every time.
3.  2010: WRG 6th edition Ancients
No Change 
4.  They attracted every rules lawyer/cheat and ended up with me selling up and ditching the hobby. Maybe something to do with the mid/late eighties but virtually every gamer i met then was obsessed with winning at all costs and no regard to historical accuracy.

Cheers
Ian