Okay, so here is a dangerous one. Complete heresy. I see shield walls depicted as a long line of shield equipped troops using them to resist an enemy. Shields locked one behind the other. Seen re-enactments doing the same...

I was in the police and I was 'shield trained ' for riots. I have also USED the darn things in disorder situations. Now, here is the heresy.... I don't believe in shield walls like that. My experience suggests they'd be too vulnerable because more than 5-6 shields in a row would mean the guys at the ends are the only ones who could use their weapons. That would make the guys in the middle VERY vulnerable.

I think shield walls were not continuous but were actually groups of 4-5 people (max) stood together with a 'co :-*ntinuous' line made up of groups like that.

There we go... Cat let out of bag. I am no historian like many here but I HAVE used a round shield to defend myself and colleagues.

Discuss...

Police shields have straight sides, don't they? I think that makes a difference when it comes to using thrusting weapons (which the cops fortunately don't).

Comparatively few  troops used the shieldwall in the way you describe it urbancohort.

As FK says, those that did had flat, round shields a yard or so across, not police riot shields and were armed with spears not truncheons.

I'd also guess that after an initial bit of fencing with spears it would become a shoving match with comparatively few casualties until one side bulldozed the other and broke their formation at which point the losing side starts to fragment and the real killing starts as people either fall back trying to get space to regroup or simply decide they're done and leg it.

Most shielded troops used the shield as both offence and defence.

The Romans for example, would rake an opponents shins with the bottom of the shield, smack them under the chin with the top or punch them with the boss and once their opponent was off-balance they or their mates would stab him with their gladius.

So, far from being heresy, what you are describing is pretty to close to how most armies did things.

I think police teams are designed to be highly manoeuvrable, hence they are in small groups of 5 to 6, they can close up and can control ground, but the teams can also open up so that fast 'snatach squads' from behind can run through the line,also the team itself can stay in  a shielded group and move forward quickly if they need to or totally break shield, move and then quickly reform.

A medieval shieldwall may well have operated in the same way, so that small tactical groups locked shields but then those sub-groups came together to form a solid 'army' line, but the men would probably tactically think in terms of their sub group. The effect is to concentrate men in  the front line, which makes the front line much denser than the attacking line unless they are also in shieldwall and a shoving match happens.

The men immediately behind the shield wall will be totally hands free to do nasty things (thrust and jab) with their pointy sticks etc.

The shieldwall tends to stop people running away (though I guess once one does, plenty might follow, reveallling gaps that can be exploited), though as men fall, the shield wall needs to be kept intact, so replacements need to be fed in so that the line does not become stretched and unable to lock shield or gaps open up between the tactical units as the sub units move either left or right to keep the integrity of the line, I think this is what happened at Hastings, when the accounts say that the less armoured General Fyrd started to take position up in the front line as it took casualties, which eventually lost its defensive shieldwall  integrit, which perhaps needed the more heavily armoured and militaristic classes to make it function effectively.

Hello

Here is a YouTube of what looks like a Korean riot police training exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8LiQFnkuJY

Interesting.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

Police shields are very large with straight sides.  Troops that used the shield wall normally has smaller shields that were not as large and often not rectangular, leaving gaps to slide a spear or sword through. 

Urban cohort said that in some instances the police use round shields.

But not spears, pikes, or thrusting swords (I hope!).

UK police shields

Saxon Shieldwall Style



Roman Legionary Style


NB: no swords, spears, javelins, axes, etc.

Front tank legionaries, rear rank circular, front rank shield wall, back rank are 'snatch squads', They come through the line and grab troublesome types quickly.

Great debate, thanks to all. Police generally use round shields in most cases now because of their greater manoeuvrability than lugging long shields. And no, police don't use edged weapons, but they do have a stick, effectively a blunt sword. Now, I still think that the principle stands. If you had a large line of round shields interlinked, I think it could be weaker than we might imagine. Obviously Saxon warriors etc might have spears and swords, but I stand by my original point. One can drive an analogy too far and public disorder is unlike real battle, but I think it would be difficult to wield such weapons in close order, interlocked shields more than 4-5 men across.

I saw a re-enactment at Battle a few years back, which was excellent, but it got me thinking.

Quote from: urbancohort on 10 October 2016, 12:19:23 PM
Great debate, thanks to all. Police generally use round shields in most cases now because of their greater manoeuvrability than lugging long shields. And no, police don't use edged weapons, but they do have a stick, effectively a blunt sword. Now, I still think that the principle stands. If you had a large line of round shields interlinked, I think it could be weaker than we might imagine. Obviously Saxon warriors etc might have spears and swords, but I stand by my original point. One can drive an analogy too far and public disorder is unlike real battle, but I think it would be difficult to wield such weapons in close order, interlocked shields more than 4-5 men across.

I saw a re-enactment at Battle a few years back, which was excellent, but it got me thinking.

A stick is a lever and requires impact velocity.. A thrusting sword is a long wedge, which goes right in. I didn't expect to have to point this out.

I know they use both, I helped with riot training up at Formby (paid, as a student, to riot for the day, it was awesome fun)!

The idea of a riot in Formby is laughable. Were the squirrels getting out of hand, or was it the OAPs?

Riot training centre, closer to Warrington, but we went and saw the squirrels in the way home, which is probably why I'm confused (and I may have been slightly concussed too, but that was from American football the day before)!
http://liverpoolcitypolice.co.uk/bruche/4556853138