Did anyone see the BBC documentary about the Somme?  What did you think.

WW1 isn't really my period, but I enjoyed it.  Before you moan, remember it, like all documentaries, is for the layman, not the enthusiastic amateur.

So it will be perpetuating myths then.

It does at least raise the point that all the modern histories are very Anglo-centric. It attempt to show the Geeman side, showed my class the bit about the phone taps today, they couldn't believe the British...

Quote from: Leman on 19 July 2016, 06:50:19 PM
So it will be perpetuating myths then.

Not really, no. Watch it and then comment.

Mollinary

So far a bit repetitive, some extraordinary stills and movie I for one haven't seen before, made it worthwhile.  See what the rest of the series is like.

History is always repetitive...it is the 'new theory' that should be analysed with caution, though, sometimes it can hit the nail. Much of the programme was nothing new, but still good stuff. In U.K we tend to forget the importance of routine intelligence gathering which seems to have paid off for the Germans in this field. Remember that in WW2 we used this to our advantage quite famously!
I liked seeing the modern views of the ground...books tend not to show such overviews...and it is often the actual land surface which is SO important.
Personally, I paused over a 'still' showing a wagon team and teamster KIA. My Grandfather, (at one time, a driver on M.G  Corps ammo wagons), had an entire team killed under him at some point in the war. It rather affected him all his days...and the photo reminds you why.   
Worth the watch.

It was the shot of the trench mortar firing that got me. My great-grandad's brother served with them as Passchedale, and was never found.

Are we talking about the one sub titled 'Both sides of the Wire'? I've seen about half on iPlayer and will see the rest probably tonight, so far it's pretty interesting, there is some use of standard stock film which was shot later but odd snippets like the 2" toffee apple trench mortar and the men in the lane waiting to attack was very interesting, as was the information about the German intellegence.

The main problem with programs about the Somme is that they concentrate on the disasterous first day, the BBC did one a few years ago called something like 'The Somme; from defeat to victory' which followed the development of British tactics methods after the first day. 

What I wasn't so sure about was the assertion that the troops were 'trained but not experienced', some books I've read indicate that Kitchener's 'New Army' was raised so quickly that training was only basic at best, a major factor in the order to 'walk across no-mans land' was due to a realisation that the troops weren't able to use the sophisticated tactics like advancing by squads and companies. 

That said the British High Command always seems at best culpable.

Quote from: DanJ on 20 July 2016, 08:54:28 AM
What I wasn't so sure about was the assertion that the troops were 'trained but not experienced', some books I've read indicate that Kitchener's 'New Army' was raised so quickly that training was only basic at best, a major factor in the order to 'walk across no-mans land' was due to a realisation that the troops weren't able to use the sophisticated tactics like advancing by squads and companies. 

That said the British High Command always seems at best culpable.

One of the main points they made about that Dan was the men were ordered not to charge as the officers were convinced they were launching a mopping up operation after the seven day artillery bombardment and that the German army was shattered. The officers were so convinced they kept repeating it to the men, so it became 'fact' as the advance went in.

Yes, DanJ - The Somme 1916 - From Both Sides of the Wire.

Quote from: Leman on 19 July 2016, 06:50:19 PM
So it will be perpetuating myths then.

Are you getting cynical in your old age, Andy?    As Mollinary says, you should watch it (the programme) (.... maybe the cynicism too?    )

One of the things I picked up on was the evidence of 'war crimes' perpetuated by both sides, and according to the archives researched by Barton, mainly by the British. One example was the shooting & bayoneting of two German prisoners - don't know what motivated that. Was due to the actions of rogue individuals (after all, you get good, bad and just plain thick guys in every nation or society - or perhaps they were guys who had lost so many pals and were itching for revenge)? Or, as was hinted at, was it that the momentum of the advance was all important to the British who were expected to penetrate the second German defensive line and so prisoners were .... well, work it out yourself. I don't think there is any evidence that this came from Higher Command but it makes you wonder what pressures were being exerted on or by the lower level of command in specific sectors of the battlefield. 

The thing that really got me was the non-existent security. British prisoners telling everything they knew.

QuoteThe thing that really got me was the non-existent security.

That was quite an eye opener, I was amazed at the telephone tapping, wonder how the Germans did it with the technology of the time?

The BBC Radio 4 series "Tommies" dealt with this rather well. If accurate, senior officers were very resistant to the idea that there was a problem or that it needed addressing.

Tapping an old phone is quite easy- you just attach a device to pickup the signal to the wire.  The implication is they had spies behind Allied lines.

iirc the problem was that as the front went back and forth wires that had been laid in friendly territory could end up in enemy territory instead and also that enemy raiding parties could intercept stuff too. Security discipline on both telephone and wireless seems to have been deplorable, at least earlyish on.