In advance of a planned BBB game next week, I have been looking at the scenario in the rulebook to get an idea of the scenery I will need for the table. One thing has cropped up that I hope the august members of this forum may be able to answer, namely:

- In the BBB scenario, one unit of infantry and one of artillery are allowed to deploy in rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat.
- In the 1870 scenario by Bruce Weigle, "The undermanned 6th Corps around St Privat had not dug in, for lack of engineers and tools." The scenario for Volley & Bayonet concurs with this.
- In Howard there is a hint that the 6th Corps did indeed dig in as he says; "perhaps it was the protection afforded by these long fields of fire that made Ladmirault and Canrobert feel excused from digging themselves in as elaborately as LeBoeuf and Frossard were doing on their left."

So the question is should the 6th Corps be allowed some form of entrenchment/rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat? Any information/views greatly received.

(Note that I have not consulted the Osprey book on the battle as Bruce Weigle is rather damning with regards its accuracy.)

There were some illustrations which show walled gardens outside Saint Privat, but I'm not sure how accurate these are. The French definitely loopholes the walls and removed roofing tiles to fire, that saves digging in. Also there is a small settlement of Saint Marie aux Chênes between the two where Bisson's Division consisting of 9th Regt de Ligne, 9th + 10th Batteries, 13th Field Artillery Regt were deployed.

This was farming territory, they'd had at least 24 hours to prepare. Bet many pick axes and shovels were 'requisitioned' in that time!

St Marie-Aux-Chenes is to the west of St Privat, not between St Privat and Roncourt, and is/was approximately the same size as St Privat itself.  There were stone walled gardens in St Privat, facing the slopes up which the Prussian Guard attacked. Roncourt is very much a flank outpost for 6th Corps, according to the Prussian maps garrisoned by a single battalion.  The ground between the two villages was not. Strongly held, having one regiment adjacent to St Privat, and then some batteries on the heights. In the end Roncourt itself  was attacked, and then used as a jump off point for the Saxons attacking St Privat from the flank.  I would be inclined not to allow entrenchment here, or on the front of 6th Corps at all.

Mollinary

http://www.vonsteinmetz.supanet.com/subpages/vnb/reduced-gsp2.html

Have a look

Quote from: mollinary on 12 February 2016, 06:21:43 PM
St Marie-Aux-Chenes is to the west of St Privat, not between St Privat and Roncourt, and is/was approximately the same size as St Privat itself. 
and that's why I needed the scenario map,

There were stone walled gardens in St Privat, facing the slopes up which the Prussian Guard attacked.
Knew it! Thanks Andrew
Roncourt is very much a flank outpost for 6th Corps, according to the Prussian maps garrisoned by a single battalion.  The ground between the two villages was not. Strongly held, having one regiment adjacent to St Privat, and then some batteries on the heights. In the end Roncourt itself  was attacked, and then used as a jump off point for the Saxons attacking St Privat from the flank.  I would be inclined not to allow entrenchment here, or on the front of 6th Corps at all.

I would agree, unless occupying a built up area, the VI Corps struggled.

Mollinary

Thanks for the feedback so far chaps, all very useful indeed .

I cannot answer the question about entrenchments. I would suspect at least hasty works. Here are a couple of photos which may help:



Above: the fields east of St.Marie aux Chenes, looking up towards St.Privat.



Above: emphasises the slope the Prussian Guard had to get up.



Above: the view back down the slope from St.Privat to St.Marie.



Above: Roncourt



Above: the entrance to the French memorial, with a gateway looking suspiciously like the one from St.Privat church in the de Neuville painting.



Above, dedication to Canrobert.



Above: a house in St.Privat from the time of the battle.

Two photos which didn't make it. The new church in St.Privat, and a house from the time:

Quote from: Leman on 12 February 2016, 08:31:31 PM



Above: the entrance to the French memorial, with a gateway looking suspiciously like the one from St.Privat church in the de Neuville painting

Because it is the original gate to the church at St Privat!   There is a photo in the museum at Gravelotte which shows the burnt out remains of the old church behind this gate. The church itself was demolished after the war and rebuilt on a higher site, at the eastern edge of the village,which is the one shown in Leman's later photo.

Mollinary

Beat me to it!

Quote from: Steve J on 12 February 2016, 05:52:04 PM
So the question is should the 6th Corps be allowed some form of entrenchment/rifle pits between Roncourt and St Privat? Any information/views greatly received.

Steve, all,

The question of French entrenchments is one that we gave quite a lot of thought to in creating the BBB Gravelotte / St Privat scenario. For 6th Corps we settled on allowing the French players to put just one of its four divisions, and half of its artillery, in the most basic form of fortification. This could represent shell scrapes or rifle pits, or - if a unit in Roncourt or St Privat itself is selected - it could just mean fortifying the village with barricades, loopholes etc.

I have a pretty extensive FPW library and I'm afraid I can't tell you which sources in particular we drew on for this decision.

Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/

Quote from: Chris Pringle on 13 February 2016, 08:32:44 AM
Steve, all,

The question of French entrenchments is one that we gave quite a lot of thought to in creating the BBB Gravelotte / St Privat scenario. For 6th Corps we settled on allowing the French players to put just one of its four divisions, and half of its artillery, in the most basic form of fortification. This could represent shell scrapes or rifle pits, or - if a unit in Roncourt or St Privat itself is selected - it could just mean fortifying the village with barricades, loopholes etc.

I have a pretty extensive FPW library and I'm afraid I can't tell you which sources in particular we drew on for this decision.

Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/

The German General Staff History is a good start point. On the defences in the south it says " meanwhile the troops were further increasing the naturally defensive capacity of the position by working with pick axe and shovel, and in a short time there appeared along the front of the 2nd and 3rd Corps a connected system of shelter-trenches, gun-pits, and covered communications. Homesteads, as Point du Jour, Moscou and St Hubert, were transformed into small forts."  It then goes on to say, regarding the the 6th Corps position "The right wing of the position in the neighbourhood of St Privat la Montagne was less strongly appuyed on natural obstacles, and as there was no engineer park whatever with the 6th Corps no entrenchments,  with the exception of a few shelter-trenches, were thrown up at that point, by which an essential protection could have been contrived for the right flank between Roncourt and the neighbouring impassable Bois de Jaumont."

It is, I think, pretty clear from this that the position of 6th Corps was substantially less well protected than that of 2nd and 3rd Corps.

Mollinary

 

[Excuse the interruption. Just a wee note in appreciation to all of you FPW experts for the info and photographs. Just received delivery of and started reading my copy of Osprey's Gravelotte-St.Privat. Good timing! Enjoying the thread. Carry on, please!]

6th Corps didn't have entrenching tools, nor, I believe was Canrobert particularly enamoured of trench fighting. Even without proper tools the chassepot bayonette and a dixie could have sufficed to make scrapes at a pinch. Frossard (the engineer) by comparison really went to town. I'm pretty sure most of the left flank French graves were shelter trenches which doubled as graves after the battle. The slope between St Marie and St Privat was described to me as 'a perfect natural glacis' and indeed it is. Gently rising, perfectly flat and utterly devoid of cover, a well dug in division could have held it until the crack of doom. As it was I believe the Guard suffered - correct me if I'm wrong - 8000 casualties in 16 minutes.
Andrew's photo of the gate of the cemetery is chilling; the famous painting of the cemetery being over run, with the little Prussian scrambling over the wall like an incubus always gives me the creeps. Roncourt was virtually undefended, if Bourbaki and the Guard had been shuffled to the right in good time the Saxons might not have had the best of it. Gravelotte, a battle lost not won.

Just finished reading Philip Guadella's 'The Two Marshalls' excellent quote which Richard used in his introduction to 'The Road To Sedan' ...

... the marching bearskins of the Guard behind a flaunting
drum-major and the beards and axes of white-aproned
Pioneers, the flaring red and blue of the Zouaves, trim
shakoes of the Line and green Chasseurs under the long
bayonets, and little vivandieres in their gay regimental
petticoats. And then the mounted men came charging
straight for the saluting-base in an immense line that ran
clear across the racecourse, big, burnished Cuirassiers,
helmeted Dragoons, Light Cavalry of every shade in bright
accoutrements and all kinds of headgear, furred, frogged,
and braided, with sling-jackets and without, all thundering
towards them, until the racing horses checked at a shouted
order and all the sabres lifted above a roar of " Vive
L'Empereur" ... in the June sunshine on a field ablaze
with every colour ... the painted army of a painted
Emperor.

Now that is poetry.

But what of the original deployment plan for Canrobert and his  corps? If he hadn't thrown a hissy fit at Bazaine he would have been in real trouble by about midday!
I still think Canrobert had some idea of how much trouble the army was in when he refused overall command!