Hi Everyone,
I've got another question for you, I'm wondering if anyone has either period or current photos of the farms on the battlefields of Gravelotte-St. Privat... so these would be Moskou, Leipsic, Saint Hubert and so forth? I've looked and looked and I can't find anything for such important locations!
Thanks
-Pat

I'll be surprised if one or more of the gang can't to help you there, Pat.

Cheers - Phil

Google maps street view (I'll look in my old photos later to see what's there). Moscow is a fairly ordinary farm (having driven through it). Try the Timecast boys?

Here's a photo of Moscow farm in the distance:



Pretty substantial as a defensive point.

I think they were reduced to rubble and rebuilt post 1870. Contemporary descriptions suggest they were stone built not brick, and of robust construction. I doubt whether they were of any interest pre 1870 and after would have been in ruins. I'll have a look in my Cassell's history tonight (1000s of illustrations/photos) and let you know. 

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the comments and offers to look into some old books for images!

Leman, I'm jealous that you got to tour the sites! I was looking at your photobucket collection Amazing collection.

I've found this one painting, entitled Das Lauenburgische Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 9 bei Gravelotte by Ernst Zimmer:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/LJB9_-_Zimmer.jpg

By chance I found another site that claims to identify the Jaeger officer with the sword raised high on the right side of the image (text in german): https://www.ratzeburg.de/index.phtml?La=1&mNavID=1.100&object=tx%7C1281.2182.1&kat=&kuo=1&sub=0

Now I'm pretty sure that's the farmstead of Chantrenne which is near the memorial for the 9th Jaeger and in the background is Vernville.  Gotta love Google Earth and I'm so thankful for this old small paper map that lists the battles around Metz which has this tissue paper overlay showing the memorials

If it's Chantrenne that's a start to finding images of the illusive farms of St. Privat-Gravelotte!

Hi Oaf!

You are absolutely correct, well worked out.  It was only last year that I finally managed to put together this picture and the ground come to that identification.  The painting is done from pretty close to the monument of the 9th Jagers, and the farm is indeed Chantrenne. It has changed a bit, but it is still recognisable. The painting is quite often miscaptioned as the Prussian attack on St Privat, which doesn't help!

There is another painting, by Rochling, showing the death of Major Hadeln (sometimes spelt Halden), the original of which is on display in the new Museum of the Annexation in Gravelotte.  It shows he Prussians charging up the road having emerged from the Mance Ravine. Behind the Major is a large farm, (Ithink, from memory, the Point du Jour, which no longer exists).   There are also a number of post battle photographs on display in the museum. perhaps dropping them an e mail might be worth a try?  I know there is a photo of Mosou farm after the battle which makes it look like a massive brick fortress, no obvious roofs, just walls. 

Good luck with the search, I will continue to see what I can find to help.

Mollinary

If you look at the farm of Champenois on Google Earth (outside Ammevilles, tragically not occupied) it gives you a fairly good idea of what farms were like, as does Tronville, which wasn't fought over

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.1548312,6.0260775,3a,75y,160.71h,80.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVFpkx-yY9tpQZom0M8tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.0841057,5.9208249,3a,75y,108.42h,89.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.91774%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

Quote from: mad lemmey on 09 February 2016, 10:38:36 AM
If you look at the farm of Champenois on Google Earth (outside Ammevilles, tragically not occupied) it gives you a fairly good idea of what farms were like, as does Tronville, which wasn't fought over

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.1548312,6.0260775,3a,75y,160.71h,80.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVFpkx-yY9tpQZom0M8tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.0841057,5.9208249,3a,75y,108.42h,89.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqF9bvAbHwUPcvx9CUbvIKQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D189.91774%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

Hi Lemmey,

Not sure what you mean by "tragically not occupied" . Do you mean today, or during the battle?  It didn't look unoccupied when we went there last summer. During the battle it was originally occupied by the French, who were evicted from it by the Hessians. There is a colour postcard, (I think by Rochling, but I am not sure) showing the incident.  The card is one of a series showing incidents from the FPW, and the series goes out of its way to show scenes involving non Prussian troops.

Mollinary

Quote from: Oat on 08 February 2016, 09:16:17 PM
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for the comments and offers to look into some old books for images!

Leman, I'm jealous that you got to tour the sites! I was looking at your photobucket collection Amazing collection.

I've found this one painting, entitled Das Lauenburgische Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 9 bei Gravelotte by Ernst Zimmer:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/LJB9_-_Zimmer.jpg

By chance I found another site that claims to identify the Jaeger officer with the sword raised high on the right side of the image (text in german): https://www.ratzeburg.de/index.phtml?La=1&mNavID=1.100&object=tx%7C1281.2182.1&kat=&kuo=1&sub=0

Now I'm pretty sure that's the farmstead of Chantrenne which is near the memorial for the 9th Jaeger and in the background is Vernville.  Gotta love Google Earth and I'm so thankful for this old small paper map that lists the battles around Metz which has this tissue paper overlay showing the memorials

If it's Chantrenne that's a start to finding images of the illusive farms of St. Privat-Gravelotte!

Hi Oat, even without the signature the painting is recognisably by Zimmer, as usual its all a bit staged, the slightly wooden 'officer pose' coming up again and again however from what I've seen of his work he's usually on the money with the unit and the terrain (see his painting of the Svib).
Andrew, do you have a link for the Rochling you mentioned ?

This is interesting, left you click on regimentsgeschichte and 1858-71, and scroll down until you see a black and white sketch of the attack, and then click on that, a Rochling comes up, actually quite a bit comes up, on the guards attack on St Privat.
http://erstes-garderegiment.de/indexalt.htm

Quote from: cameronian on 09 February 2016, 11:59:24 AM
Andrew, do you have a link for the Rochling you mentioned ?

I just googled Major von Hadeln and the first two images to come up were the picture.

Mollinary

Mistype, damned phone, meant occupied not unoccupied!
It was held by the French for a long time, who sniped the nearby Hessian artillery, it was ages before the Hessians occupied it!

Ah that one, never been too sure of it I must say. If my memory serves me shouldn't Point du Jour be ahead of them and to their right (our left), the building to their left (our right) is more likely to be St Hubert, n'est pas? Also - again from memories of 2005 - shouldn't there be a lot more foliage on that part of the road as it emerges from the Mance, I recall it was quite dense.

Yes, it could be St Hubert, but you cannot rule out either of the locations on your criteria. I have the original German Staff History map in front of me and Point du Jour was on the same side of the road as St Hubert, after the road had jagged towards the south.  In 1870 the woods did not progress so far up the slope on the French side at the site of the crossing of the ravine, so should not figure in this whichever of the two it is.  But that picture you've dug up (which I haven't seen before) certainly looks similar to the buildings in the Hadeln painting so, as so often in researching this period, you pays yer money and takes yer choice!

Mollinary

I've always thought of PDJ as being to the right of St Hubert (going up the hill) but then the road kinks sharply to the right further up so it could be to the right of St Hubert but also on the same side of the road - if you see what I mean. I'm pretty certain that's St Hubert (both a farm and an Auberge) behind them. I haven't read my Howard for a few years but I thought they got stuck pretty much where your Major Hadeln got shot, did they get as far as PDJ before the glorious rout later that evening?.