For those unfamiliar with Heroes of Normandie I thought it might be useful to show how their system works in case it sparks some ideas. I'm not suggesting it be imported wholesale into BKC!

Templates vary in the number, size and layout of the slots for additional units/ abilities. The one below is fairly simple.

You get a Sergeant, a Willy's jeep and a Scout unit - as shown in the centre of the template.

You can add the other items providing they are the right size, share at least one edge colour and you have a free slot for it.

HoN is skirmish level so it's the principles I'm interested in rather than the actual execution.

Thanks Ithoriel.  Wasn't sure whether to go to much into a system that some might not have seen, but that photo should help with the concept of templates and slots.

You'll note that it is still points based, as is the Spearhead system.  I'm looking to do away with points - you literally tick the 'x' number of units you want.

One refinement I alluded to was 'tough' units could be smaller - ie Tigers came in slots of half companies (=2 platoons)

A further evolution of this would be : -
Instead of a standard paper template say of 4 companies of 4 platoons, some companies companies could be understrength (like the Tigers), with Option to complete

A Company - 4 Platoons Tank

B Company - 3 Platoons Tank
   -  Option - 1 Platoon Tank

C Company - 3 Platoons Tank
   -  Option - 1 Platoon Tank

D Company - 2 Platoons Tank
   -  Option - 2 Platoons Tank

Here all 4 Companies at Paper strength cost 7 Slots.  But for 4 slots you get 4+3+2+2 platoons.  1 more slot, to bring D company up to strength, gets you 2 more, then you have to pay 1 slot per platoon.  Thus the SAME item gets progressive more expensive.  This could balance the lots of crap vs hardly any good stuff.

Someone asked about Veterans etc.  Not sure how this woks in BKC, but the Template could cost 1 or 2 more slots, and/or some slots are not available to vets - they can't be at paper strength.

Personally, I do want points values, even though I won't always use them. I play enough pick-up games with people who can't tell a Tiger from a toast-rack that a quick way to get roughly balanced forces is a must.

It is a points system.  Most things cost 1 point!

Hopefully this link will work to my Dropbox

CAVEAT - DEMO PURPOSES ONLY.  Not yet had a chance to check for balance.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ijwdq0rwwua2qxr/OOB%20Templates.docx?dl=0

I've found some photocopies of the stats from a BKC (not sure which one), I'm going to be doing some analysis.

The idea is a Box means it costs a 'pick'. A diamond you get it free.  You can buy different cells, but with in a cell you have to buy from the top down.

You start with the Brigade Template. Each

The Comet Regt  has a Box, so it costs a pick to buy the template ON TOP of buying a Armoured Regt at Brigade level.

DO NOT ASSUME I MEAN THESE AS THE FINAL PRODUCT.  Also can anyone point me towards TOEs for Battalions and Regiments.  I know the Comet and Cromwell may be wrong, as Sherman regiments flood my search results, even using COMET REGIMENT OOB 1945 as a search term.

I did some analysis on a fictionalised PzIV regement at lunch yesterday (so a little hurried)

Pick (for Regt) - A Coy - 4 plts

Pick - B coy 3 plt
Pick - B coy Option 1 Plt

Pick - C Coy 2 Plt
Pick - C Coy Option 2 Plt

Calculating on BKC points PzIV = 140pts

1st  Pick - 4 Plts (A Coy)       - 560 pts - Pts Per Pick 560
2nd Pick - 7 Plts (Add B Coy)- 980 pts -Pts per Pick 490
3rd Pick - 9 Plts (Add C Coy)- 1260 pts -Pts per Pick 420
4th Pick - 11 Plts (C Coy Option)- 1540 pts -Pts per Pick 385
5th Pick - 12 Plts (B Coy Option)- 1680pts -Pts per Pick 336

Took longer to type that than calculate it!

So the more picks you take from a Regt/Bn, the less you get on average per Pick.

Idea while I'm typing.  Some stuff (say the recce) is Automatic on 1st Regt, but option on 2nd and subsequent of that type (Type = Armoured, not tank type)

So (I dont have the wingdings here)
*(0)

where (O) means it is a pick on the 2nd and subsequent.

A Tiger Regt might be

* - 2 Tigers
O - 1 Tiger
O - 1 Tiger

O - 2 Tigers
O - 1 Tiger
O - 1 Tiger

O - 2 Tigers
O - 1 Tiger
O - 1 Tiger

Can't access dropbox but it all seems more complicated than the existing lists!

In suspect it's much more complex to put into practice than the existing lists, but once done there's less player side input needed - LH will already have done the "historical set up" to guide people into taking something approaching a "proper" or at least theoretically proper set up, with the crunchy points bits hidden behind the scenes.

Bit like the Flames of War company selectors in their lists/box sets but with the points filed off/down to "picks" of sub units of roughly equal game value.

What the  Pixie said.  The list writer sets up the list - doesn't actually take too long, believe it or not, once you have a Historical Orbat to work from.  You just split it down, so subsequent picks get you less and less.

It is effectively a simplified points system for the player - except instead of having to add up lots of points, each 'packet' is 1 point (pick).  The templates restrict/guide you to historical options, but the mix is down to you, so no battalions of 6 Fireflies, 5 Churchills and a Grant ("A grant?", "yeah, I had some points left over.")

In the tiger example the * is your 'Free' units that come with the regiment.  To get ore you have to pay 1 per 'O', but in each company you can't have the next one, until you bought the ones above it.

I'll fiddle with the DropBox, see if I can get it.  It is simple, and elegant to look at.

Sorry, "can't access dropbox" in the sense of it won't let me access anything without signing up which I've no intention of doing. Nothing wrong with the operation dropbox nor your files I'm sure.

As to the army lists - it's currently looking too restrictive for my taste. There again I am probably not the target audience for them!

Plus taking more items from a formation ought to make subsequent ones cheaper, not more expensive IMHO. Encourage people to take complete formations and not cherry-pick the best bits.

This isn't for the straight out the barracks armies, this is for those that have been in the field a few weeks and so are missing bits due to enemy action/breakdowns/illness/leave etc.

I see this a semi-independent system; while I mention CV for BKC, its usable for, say SH.  12 picks should give an army ROUGHLY comparable points wise no matter what force you are using.  Each force should be a reasonable balanced one of what was in the field - not like the BA (I know- different level) one I saw in their magazine which was all over the place, somewhat 40K-ish. (Note I have BA, and on a quick read there are some interesting similarities with CoC; I'm highlighting the randomness of forces allowed, rather than attacking the rules!).

Its also to eliminate the problems with points
1) HAVING TO ADD THE BLOODY THINGS UP
2) Getting away from the idea that the Anti-pointists complain about.  4 x Tank A <> 3 x Tank B, even though they are the same point total. In the 80's I read an article by Steve Jackson about points.  A High point unit was equal the square root of the number of low point units that had the same total points.

eg a 100 point unit isn't worth four 25pt units, it is worth TWO (square root of 4).  This is because the cheap but plentiful still need to be destroyed individually, so some of them will be getting unanswered shots in, and can manoeuvre round flanks.

This doesn't get rid of that, but it masks the idea of 4 x 35pts = 1 x 140 pt.  Hmm - that doen't make sense does it.  Know what I mean, having trouble explaining it!  BKC - the army list that tells you not to pick more than 1500 points worth (12 models) of 75mm Shermans per 1000pts 

According to Dropbox

You can share files with anyone, even non-Dropbox users, by getting a link to any file or folder. Once you get the link, you can send it by email, Facebook, Twitter, instant message, social networks, wherever you want. You can share these links with anyone, even if they don't have a Dropbox account.

so you shouldn't have to sign up

Wonder if your computer didn't like the Word format - do you have Word 2013?

Try this
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1n0n2vyyw16uq3w/OOB%20Templates%20example.pdf?dl=0

I'd mostly agree with Ithoriel about making players take at least the majority of their first units (ie take the whole/bulk of one tank regiment before you go off and get as many Fireflys/Challies/whatever's from the next!), but you also need to account for those units that operated together. You should be able to "swap out"/cross attach mech infantry cots & tanks squadrons depending on army and year for instance to reflect both actual usage and theoretical practise.

Last Hussar, have you looked at the Spearhead Scenario system? It does basically what you're trying to do here but is a bit more granular in that you're adding up individual platoons within a company but have to buy whole battalions before moving on, unless they're a "support choice" from divisional assets or the at the time could cross attach effectively.

It might save you reinventing the wheel somewhat, and you can then just look at how many Sherman companies with X ratio of 75's to 76's/17pdr's are worth a company of PzrIV Specials etc

Quote from: Last Hussar on 10 October 2015, 06:17:15 PM
BKC - the army list that tells you not to pick more than 1500 points worth (12 models) of 75mm Shermans per 1000pts 

LH the maximums in BKC are for every complete 1000 points. 1500 points is perfectly possible in a 1800 point battlegroup which would be restricted to 1000 point limits. Though it might be a somewhat unbalanced force!

I've looked the the linked file - Open Office is quite happy with Microsoft's nasty non-standards-compliant software

Problem I see first off is who's going to take 'B' Squadron, let alone 'C' when for the same picks they can get two other Regimental  HQs, add-ons and 'A' troops. Is an upgrade from CV7 to 8 really worth the same as another battalion HQ, etc.?

It just gives the same problem in a different form.

Army lists as is, with some standard formations pre-pointed on the BKC forum, or whatever replaces it, would be preferable IMHO.

As to the problem of adding up points - that's what spreadsheets are for

Using the same formation as Last Hussar as an example, I'd envisaged something more like this:

Armoured Brigade  (max 1)
CO CV9 @ 120pts (Mandatory 1)

   Armoured Regiment (max 3)
   HQ CV7 @ 30pts (max 1)
   Upgrade HQ to CV8 @ +30pts
   Recce Unit (Honey Recce) @ 60 pts (max 1)
   Upgrade Honey Recce to Honey @ +30 pts
   HQ Escort (Sherman 75mm) @ 125pts

      Tank Squadron (max 4)
      3 x Sherman 75mm @ 375pts
      Upgrade to 3 x Cromwell @ +15pts
      Upgrade to 3 x Sherman 76mm @ +45pts
      Add 4th Sherman 75mm (max 1) @ 125pts
      Upgrade 4th Sherman to Cromwell @ +5pts
      Upgrade 4th Sherman to Sherman 76mm @ +15pts
      Upgrade 4th Sherman to Sherman Firefly @ +25pts
      NB One tank may be Firefly otherwise all tanks must be of same type.

   Motor Battalion (max 1)
            etc. etc.

I've rejigged the idea to each pick is 500pts +/- 10%(ish)

You don't see the points- again you just get a so many "picks"

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu3h33y1dtzlkgx/OOB%20Templates%20ver%202.pdf?dl=0

The repeated boxes are to make it easy - you'd print off a page and indicate which units are in the Command.

Yes I know you can get 'too many' fireflies- since when has combat strength matched actual!