Continuing my recent fascination with the trees of Guilford Courthouse I have two questions

1. What sort of trees would have been growing in southern North Carolina in 1781
2. As the 8'x6' table I will probably end up using for this game will be mainly covered in trees, where can I get a couple of hundred suitable trees cheaply

AS to numbers of trees, use bases for wooded areas with a few on them. Unless of course you want to annoy the club blowhard, and use all the small scale trees cause he wants some of them. Who moi ? 

That's what I normally do but for Guilford Courthouse the whole area except for the fields and roads were wooded either lightly or heavily

IIRC someone on this August forum bought a load cheaply from China via Evilbay, so probably worth a quick search there...

I bought shed loads of palm trees for a tenner from a company in China using EBay.

They did lots of other trees too, intended for railway modellers I think.

I asked a friend of ours about the trees question, as he knows a little about the period...  

Density of trees at GCH? Well normally I would resort to Babits & Howard's book on GCH but cannot find my copy so here goes using info from sources and modern botany (in which I am no expert!).

There are a number of comments in the sources plus a 1780s map which shows lots of trees around GCH. This discusses some of them but many of the links seem to be down (they draw on the Library of Congress collections amongst others).

http://blog.ncmaps.org/index.php/battle-of-guilford-courthouse/

This is a better view of one of the earliest - 1787 in Tarleton's 'Southern Campaigns' and based on William Faden's map. Many subsequent maps are based on Faden's sketches and map (frequently without acknowledgemnt!). The upshot is it shows that most of the battlefield was wooded - the exceptions being the fields/cleared ground in front of the railed fence and the area around the courthouse where the third line drew up.

http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/32guilford/32images/32map2bh.gif

Written evidence to support this occurs in several literary sources - here are pages 349 - 350 from Lamb's 'Original and Authentic Journal':

https://archive.org/stream/cihm_36104#page/n393/mode/2up

Some of Lamb's account is maybe lifted from Stedman's 'History' but Lamb was certainly present and it is possible that so was Stedman (he was Commissary of Prisoners). Lamb comments on the enemies dispositions and on p351 comments on the nature of the ground and the thickness of the woods. On p 362 he comments on the thickness of the undergrowth when he steadies the horse Cornwallis is riding on and saving him from riding into the midst of the Americans. This episode occurs after the NC militia have routed and whilst the 23rd are engaging the Virginia militia.

This is Tarleton's account of the dispositions from:

http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/campaigns/campaigns5.html

This is chapter 5. In all Tarleton makes 6 comments about the thickness of the woods. He points to note are disposition of American first and second lines in woods and third line in/on clearing. Also that Tarleton's horse and the artillery had to advance up the line of the road (indicating that the woods were not really passable to wheeled vehicles or bodies of mounted men as opposed to individuals - see specific comment on p 274 and also one on p273).

Later on p 275 Tarleton comments on the nature of the terrain 'from the thickness of the woods and a jealousy for its flanks'.

The notes to Chapter 5 of Tarleton's book are here:

http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/campaigns/campaigns5n.html

This page contains Cornwallis's despatch (pp303 - 309) which mention wood/woods 11 times! Later in Greene's despatch which has two mention of woods (on p315).

This extract on Google books - gives a precis of St George Tucker's letter. He was on the right with Lawson's brigade (thus in part facing Lamb & 23rd) and it is pretty clear confusion reigns and not much can be seen - so that when an advance is ordered it collapses when the enemy is discovered in their rear! Whilst not a direct statement St George's account coupled with Lamb, Tarleton & Cornwallis's comments on the woods point to close nature of the woods.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jgKgInXq0nAC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=guilford+court+house+tucker+st+george&source=bl&ots=emi5NdoMEJ&sig=D5fK55ncIijJ8JEcE0M6iOEU8a4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ff6gVd69N-Le7AaLtq_ICw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=guilford%20court%20house%20tucker%20st%20george&f=false

In summary

The rebels are drawn up in a wooded area - the front line NC brigades are at the edge of a couple of fenced clearings/fields, their flanks extending to and covered by Lee's & Washingtons detachments wholly in woods. Both Washington & Lee have cavalry which plays very little part in the initial action - quite likely due to the unsuitable nature of the woods. Washington's mounted men end up withdrawing all the way back to the third line whilst Lee's mounted men stick with his infantry but end up in being pushed to their left rear by infantry alone! Tarleton's comments illustrate how unsuitable the woods were for mounted men and both he and Cornwallis comment that guns could only move along the road.

The Virginia line 3-400 yards back are posted in woods contiguous with those where the NC militia were drawn up. Lamb has comments about fighting behind trees and thick undergrowth. The fighting is confused (Lamb and Tucker) and it appears no clear sight lines as shown by the appearance of British troops (likely the Guards grenadier coy) outflanking getting behind/through elements of Lawson's Bde who are attempting an advance in support of the NC bdes. So there are no neat lines in the open and visibility is poor (made worse by powder smoke as well no doubt).

Cornwallis' account illustrates the piecemeal nature of the British breakthrough - 1st Webster on the British left come out of the woods and attack the third line, then the 2nd Guards, 23rd & Guards Grenadiers and finally the 71st come out of the woods each essentially having fought a series of individual actions. 1st Guards and von Bose are away on the right fighting an even more private war! Basically this disjointed advance is a function of the heavily wooded nature of the terrain and in some areas of the field combined with broken ground/ravines.

Why did Greene draw up there:

Because it was wooded - it enabled him to draw up in three lines - so defence in depth. His front line of militia get to hide behind a fence with a wood to melt away into in their rear after firing their two rounds (most only managed one). His second line is again drawn up in woods which shields his position and hides his numbers and disrupts the enemy. The Virginia militia are flakey  - Stevens posts marksmen behind his line to stop them running off and Lawson's Bde gets into a mess when some bits of it were ordered to advance (I suspect not in their original orders) - then crumble when they find enemy on their flanks and behind.

The idea behind the deployment of the militia in two lines in woods is to give them cover (think of a security blanket!) some where to melt away into and to disrupt the enemy advancing against them. The Continentals who fight properly are drawn up in the rear in order to conserve their strength and give them suitable ground to operate on. It is an intelligent position in which to fight a battle - Greene lost but he inflicted grievous casualties on Cornwallis who could not continue the campaign and had to pull back to consolidate

What was the forest like?

GCH is in Greensboro in the NC piedmont. NCpedia gives this list of plants commonly occurring in piedmont floras

http://ncpedia.org/vegetation#piedmont

Here is another site with more information on the tree element of the flora:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pic/nctrees.htm

Some modern photo views not by any means systematic but I think it shows a range of what some of the GCH woodland may have looked like but is by no means exhaustive!







Hope this helps.

Quote from: Leon on 11 July 2015, 09:47:30 PM
...
Hope this helps.

A brilliantly useful answer

Many many thanks to you & your friend

I have just got hold of a copy of  Babits & Howard's book so have some reading to do

Now I have to work out how to turn that into V&B terms.
Some will be Forest - disorders infantry and prohibits cavalry & artillery, the rest will be Woods - slows cavalry & artillery, doesn't effect infantry.

At this stage my thinking is a band of Forest behind the first fields thining to Woods on the flanks. Deploying the NC Militia in this does them no harm as they count as Militia and are already disordered

The second line of milita would deploy behind that band in more woods. The VA Militia are better quality and don't count as disordered in Wood but the British will be disordered by the Forest.

I may use another band of Forest to represent the ravine before the third line but need to work out how that relates to the creek in that area

Quote from: Steve J on 11 July 2015, 06:51:04 AM
IIRC someone on this August forum bought a load cheaply from China via Evilbay, so probably worth a quick search there...

Quote from: Ithoriel on 11 July 2015, 09:27:05 PM
I bought shed loads of palm trees for a tenner from a company in China using EBay.

They did lots of other trees too, intended for railway modellers I think.

Do either of you remember the name of the seller / company?

I would prefer to deal with someone that I know has delivered in the past

Wow! Superb information Leon.

Hullo,
I've ordered trees from a Chinese seller over ebay on two separate occasions, on both cases the order (post free!) arrived promptly in Finland and in good order. The shop is everestmodel, and has an absolute metric ton of stuff to choose from. And very affordable. One does wonder how much they pay their employees.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/everestmodel/

The trees I've bought are the
- D9035 9 cm tree, very nice dark green
- OL40, good for orchards
- G3010, 3 cm, good for 6 mm games, or as saplings. I think this one is quite dark and nice green.
- D5020 5 cm and G3513 5 cm. I think the 3513 is quite bright green in colour.

All the tree trunks are twisted wire painted brown and OK quality for a wargame. The flock/foam cluster foliage stays on quite well in my experience.

Cheers,
Aksu

Yup that's them.

I got 40 palm trees in assorted sizes for just less than a tenner.

Arrived faster from China than the figures they were bought to go with, which were coming from England 

A thing to bear in mind with sufficient trees for GCH is that they will not go to waste. The briefest consideration of Southern Theatre battles is that many had some form of woodland on, around or in the action; Cowpens, Kings Mountain, Savannah 1778, Eutaw Springs Hobkirk's Hill even Camden. These places were nowhere near the pristine bowling greens one often sees used for wargaming. That is without taking into account the Saratoga campaign and many minor actions.

Also worth having a look at this blog:

http://miniawi.blogspot.co.uk/

Sadly it is no longer maintained but there is a lot of information with some good ideas there. Worth taking time to browse.

Here are some more shots of NC woodland - not all relevant but again it gives an idea. Of course scaling terrain pieces is a subject fraught problems but it will give you an idea:

http://tinyurl.com/q2j86pb

Thanks, some useful info

I'm looking to do Cowpens in January

Quote from: Aksu on 12 July 2015, 09:35:40 AM
... And very affordable. One does wonder how much they pay their employees...

A bit of a moral dilemma but if we don't buy the products their employees don't get paid at all

Try this one, this is where I got mine from with no probs. Bear in mind they were meant for 6mm but are just as good for 10's.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400881854698?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Quote from: Subedai on 12 July 2015, 09:12:33 PM
Try this one, this is where I got mine from with no probs. Bear in mind they were meant for 6mm but are just as good for 10's.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400881854698?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I can also vouch for this seller I have bought numerous trees from him in the past without any problems.

Take care

Andy