Here is our battle report from our first game of TTLGB. Quite a fun game. Another one posted shortly.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=kUpf9QM6umg
Do you have a version that you dont need to log into google to view?
just a youtube link....try this:
And here is our 2nd battle fought last night
Lovely stuff, I really like these and the games look superb.
Great report. I like how the units are based. Makes me wish I had done something similar for TTLGB.
Those are superb! :-bd =D> 8)
(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)
Odd, I don't see a link in either of those posts. Found them on a search on you tube, and thoroughly enjoyed both. Well done! I wondered if you could explain your basing system, and how you mark the squares, they look very effective.
Mollinary
I hate to be the grumpy old whinger but I found the youtubes annoying
Ok I can turn the sound down
However I would like to look at the photos, as the game looks excellent, but they keep moving and even when I pause them youtube quality is not very god
So are the photos online else where?
And what Mollinary said - I wondered if you could explain your basing system
Alan
Glad most have enjoyed the reports. Sorry my grumpy old friend...I don't have the photos elsewhere...just the youtube videos.
Most of the figs are 6mm Heroics & Ros, with a smattering of Baccus. I based them more like dioramas for Polemos a couple years ago, and really liked the feel of real unit moving over the battlefield vs the run of the mill multiple small bases representing a unit. I based them with two units in line, 16 per unit...so each base has two battlelines for a total of 32 men. On some I added a few skirmishers out in front of the lines. I don't mind marking hits with dice or markers, so it really never hurt the way I play games that I couldn't remove stands as casualties added up. I added the tags to the backs of the stands for TTLGB labeling each unit regimental number, how many hits it could take and the Combat effectiveness. We simply mark how many hits a unit is accumulating, then to figure your current Combat Effectivenes you just subtract the hits from the noted value on the tag...simple. And then once you have as many hits marked on the unit as are on the tag...remove from the game. The orders of battle I pulled from another rulebook...1870.
The guys are really enjoying TTLGB...nothing like we have ever played in our group.
The battlefield is marked off into 10 inch squares using terrain...mostly fence corners and single trees. The forests are from an idea shared on Alter of Freedom's website...so they stand out much more defined than the trees marking corners. I have a couple houses here and there to mark the corners as well. I also added a dot on my gamemat (homemade with Tshirt material sprayed with various shades of greens an browns) for every corner...we can check if we get confused this way..never any mixups with corners that way. I am thoroughly enjoying this system and so glad that it works with my thousands of already mounted French and Prussian troops.
Marcus
My FPW units are based for TTLGB - 30x20mm bases with an infantry unit being 3-4 bases plus an officer base. One thing I like about the rules is that it can effectively handle a large number of units so you really can do a large battle in a reasonable time frame. I think that using the polemos basing might even facilitate quicker games.
Thanks Marcus. What I was really trying to find out was what each of your bases represents. A battalion? A regiment? How many bases in your Corps? Cavalry different from infantry?
Regards,
Mollinary
8)
Mollinary,
Sorry, I misunderstood. I play each stand represents a full Regiment. The OOB is historical for McMahon's and Prinz Carl's Armies. So for the French there were two divisions per corps...each of about 2 divisions (6 regiments per division off the top of my head), plus a division of Cavalry. The cavalry divisions for the French were about the same size as the infantry divisions. For the Prussians...we played 3 Corps of Prince Carl's army...I believe he had another two, but I didn't have enough artillery to accurately represent all the Corps (so theyere are around . The Prussian Corps were smaller...still two divisions, but less regiments per division (regiments were larger in manpower though...so they take more hits). I'm probably fielding around 40 stands (regiments) per army at this point. Once I get the rest of my artillery painted up, I'll be able to field at least another French Corps and another 2 Prussian Corps. Again...I pull all the OOB's from the rule set 1870...he has fantastic resources in there...I don't even pay attention to his rules, but the additional stuff is worth every penny for the rule set...if you are into the period.
Marcus
Sorry to butt into the conversation, but have any of you experts seen or used or going to use the new Fire and Fury version for this period that is coming out?
Fenton,
If you are refering to the Age of Valor variation of Brigade level Fire and Fury, I will certainly be buying it, and giving it a try. It should fit my basing pretty well. But I will also be working on my own version of Regimental Fire and Fury, carrying on from where I left off at the end of the Austro Prussian War.
Marcus, thanks for the explanation, I thought the bases must represent more than a battalion (the basic unit in the TTLGB rules). So so you give the regiment bases 1 point per 250men, to replicate the rule strengths? I assume the cavalry are one base per regiment as well, and the guns one per battery? I was wondering how you keep the damage inflicted by various forms of combat all in synch! My recollection on organisation was that basic divisional organisation was the same on both sides, each division containing two brigades, each of which contained two regiments of three battalions. The diffference was:
i) in the light troops (Chasseurs/Jagers) where the French had one battalion per division and the Prussians one per corps,;
ii) in the artillery where the Prussians had 2 heavy and 2 light batteries per division, plus a corps reserve of c6 more batteries, usually 2 heavy, 2 light and 2 Horse batteries. The French had 2 4pdr batteries and Mitrailleuse battery per division, and a corps reserve of about the Prussian size;
iii) in battalion size the Prussian being close to 1,000 strong, the French very variable between 600-800;
iv) The number of divisions in a corps. The Prussians standardising on 2, the French having from 2-4, with Marshal' corps having four.
Regards,
Mollinary
Thats the one I was thinking of...The only thing that puts be off the period and its a silly reason is the short time the wars it lasted, though I could see some interesting what if's etc
Currently basing up 10mm Austrians for the RE&F rules. I am using 30x20mm for infantry and 30x30mm for both cavalry and artillery. Infantry have four figures per base, cavalry three and artillery one gun per base. This system allows for a good representation of formations, but requires a shed load of infantry figures, as a battalion is twelve bases, and a large table (10'x6'). I will post some photos when I have textured the bases.
Don't be put off by time frames. More large battles in the first 6 weeks of the FPW than the first two years of the ACW.
DP, sounds great! Can't wait to see the pictures.
Mollinary
Would the same figures be useful for the Austro Prussian Wars as well?
The Austrians I'm doing are for 1866 (can also be used in 1864) i.e. they are in grey greatcoat. 1859 Austrians wore the white kittel jacket.
thanks guys you have peaked my interest..Can you recommend a good book to begin with ...a Dummies guide so to speak?
There is so much more out there now than when I started doing FPW using 'They Died for Glory'. A real get you started primer is Bruce Weigle's 1870 rules, which summarise the war, its weapons and tactics, as well as providing most of the orders of battle and 14 very detailed scenarios. The unbeaten single volume history is Michael Howard's 'The Franco-Prussian War', but if you like your history detailed with lots of contemporary illustrations then try Quintin Barry's two volume history, 'The Franco Prussian War - The Campaign of Sedan' and 'The Franco-Prussian War - After Sedan'.
And even though it is fiction Zola's Debacle is worth a read. He interviewed many FPW veterans.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 02 December 2013, 02:57:53 PM
The Austrians I'm doing are for 1866 (can also be used in 1864) i.e. they are in grey greatcoat. 1859 Austrians wore the white kittel jacket.
So I thought too, but many of the illustrations show 1866 Austrian infantry in white and some eye-witness accounts speak of "white-clad masses".
Greetings
I'm still trying to work out how best to set up FPW in 10mm to both explore lower level tactics and larger forces. I think I am going to go for a scheme that allows me to build, at lowest level, six bases per Prussian/German company (probably 4/base) so roughly 1:10 scale with command bases (so probably RF&F 1866 conversion scale), moving up to 1 base per company so roughly 1:60 with 48 bases per division. Imperial French would be a bit trickier.
Regards
Edward
Quote from: Hertsblue on 03 December 2013, 09:57:53 AM
So I thought too, but many of the illustrations show 1866 Austrian infantry in white and some eye-witness accounts speak of "white-clad masses".
This is a big problem for a lot of periods before photographs, and many since. Illustrators fall into many categories, and not all were present on campaign. This leads to searching of archives for illustrations to base new material on, and where this fails, I suppose, guesswork. In 1866 the Austrian army had been famous to the world as the "Whitecoats" for 150 years, and had fought as such in Italy in 1859. Not surprising perhaps that these were the images that illustrators produced. Remember a famous contemporary image (for a German postcard I think) of fighting on the Western Front (1914 I think) had red coated Bristish infantry in Bearskins resisting German cavalry! The eye witness accounts are more difficult to square. Those that are done for newpapers might well fall into the 'artistic licence' category, giving people images they will recognise easily, and that allow the two sides to be differentiated. There are also other aspects of uniform which might have given the impression of white masses (The Austrian Heavy cavalry wore huge white greatcoat/mantles during the campaign). Individual accounts, eg in letters home, must be given more credence, but still probably need a closer look, rather than simply saying, "I saw white figures which identified them as Austrian" and not looking for other possible explanations". In more informal settings, in camp or bivouac, I am sure most soldiers were in shirts rather than their greatcoats, for example. Finally, as a thought, I seem to recall from somewhere that the Austrians were instructed not to take the white kittel with them on campaign. What is not clear to me is whether it is possible that some of those troops actually permanently based in Bohemia might have worn them. Still, mostly speculation, interested if anyone has anything firmer to go on.
Mollinary
Edward,
Sounds very much where I am going on this. I have the Prussians and the Austrian Army of the North at the 1:60 scale, suitable for Trapped Like a Fox or TTLGB. From them I can (and have) built up Corps for the early actions of 1866 using an interim scale of 1:20 so three bases to a Prussian company. I am also planning on going to the full RFF scale of 1:10 to do more or less brigade/division level scenarios for refighting parts of Koniggratz, like the Swiepwald or Problus. As you say, the French are trickier to track down. I have most of the army in 1:60 scale, three bases to a battalion. At 1:10 that would be about 18 bases, which might work. My middle scale, with nine bases, might be a bit trickier. I need to get some playtesting in! I also have, but so far have never used, about 100+ skirmish bases, each with two figures instead of four, for each of the armies. These might allow for a more accurate representation of the firing line. Anyway, I am looking forward to experimenting.
Andrew
Greetings
I spent some time reading accounts and the French need to be able to deploy by half battalion (example at Gravelotte pushed out to skirmish - can't recall the regiment off hand) so I think there need to be an even number of stands if you aim to break down the battalion on the table. The rapid fluctuation of French numbers doesn't help.
Have you read Petain's On Infantry article from 1911 where he compares French and Prussian regulations and uses parts of Mars le Tour as an example?
Regards
Edward
Hi Edward,
Yes I have, my French is just about up to it. A very interesting read. Agree your point about even numbers per battalion, for exactly that reason, so I'd probably go for 8 or 10 depending on rounding actual strengths (where available). There are a couple of excellent French pamphlets in a series called something like "Les Batteilles Oublies" on Wissembourg and Spicheren which have very good OOB information. I had some interesting preliminary discussion with Richard Clark on this FPW sublect about 2 years ago, but various things got in the way of taking it forward. It is on my to-do list!
Andrew
Quote from: mollinary on 03 December 2013, 11:19:54 AM
Hi Edward,
Yes I have, my French is just about up to it. A very interesting read. Agree your point about even numbers per battalion, for exactly that reason, so I'd probably go for 8 or 10 depending on rounding actual strengths (where available). There are a couple of excellent French pamphlets in a series called something like "Les Batteilles Oublies" on Wissembourg and Spicheren which have very good OOB information. I had some interesting preliminary discussion with Richard Clark on this FPW sublect about 2 years ago, but various things got in the way of taking it forward. It is on my to-do list!
Andrew
Rich and I talk about it from time to time as well :-)
Interesting about the pamphlets.
Regards
Edward
The two pamphlets (about Osprey sort of size) are by Ronald Zins, in the series quoted. Spicheren is No4, published in 2001, and Wissembourg is No14 published in 2010. They are relatively easy to get here in Belgium, at 15-20 Euros each. Helion stocks the Wissembourg one, but at 35 pounds! I could probably get copies for you if you are interested and post them on, if you pm me with an address. Otherwise, I am sure some French site will let you buy cheap via paypal.
Cheers,
Andrew
Quote from: mollinary on 03 December 2013, 10:52:20 AMThis leads to searching of archives for illustrations to base new material on, and where this fails, I suppose, guesswork. In 1866 the Austrian army had been famous to the world as the "Whitecoats" for 150 years, and had fought as such in Italy in 1859. Not surprising perhaps that these were the images that illustrators produced....... Still, mostly speculation, interested if anyone has anything firmer to go on.
Mollinary
To add my three ha'pence worth, even in the greatcoat the Austrians wore very prominent white crossbelts with a white pouch in the middle of them. From a distance this would lighten the appearance of the Austrians en masse quite a bit I should think.
Quote from: mollinary on 02 December 2013, 02:35:22 PM
Marcus, thanks for the explanation, I thought the bases must represent more than a battalion (the basic unit in the TTLGB rules). So so you give the regiment bases 1 point per 250men, to replicate the rule strengths? I assume the cavalry are one base per regiment as well, and the guns one per battery? I was wondering how you keep the damage inflicted by various forms of combat all in synch! on organisation was that basic divisional organisation was the same on both sides, each division containing two brigades, each of which contained two regiments of three battalions. The diffference was:
i) in the light troops (Chasseurs/Jagers) where the French had one battalion per division and the Prussians one per corps,;
ii) in the artillery where the Prussians had 2 heavy and 2 light batteries per division, plus a corps reserve of c6 more batteries, usually 2 heavy, 2 light and 2 Horse batteries. The French had 2 4pdr batteries and Mitrailleuse battery per division, and a corps reserve of about the Prussian size;
iii) in battalion size the Prussian being close to 1,000 strong, the French very variable between 600-800;
iv) The number of divisions in a corps. The Prussians standardising on 2, the French having from 2-4, with Marshal' corps having four.
Regards,
Mollinary
Molinary,
Yep...you are correct sir...1 point per 250 men. We just mark the casualties with tokens/dice. We do the same procedure for cav and artillery as well. As for the organizations...the resource I used to do my OOB's was a ruleset by Bruce Weigle-1870 Grand Tactical Rules. My reserach showed the following...which pretty much matches what you said. I used McMahon's Army of Alsace from August 1st 1870 and it contained Three corps, 1 corp with 4 divisions of infantry ranging from 4-5 regiments, a cav division, and corps artillery. The other two corps had 3 infantry divisions with the same number of regiments each, a cav division and corps artillery. Whereas I used the Prussian Second Army of Pz Friedric Carl also from August 1st 1870. This army had four corps, each with only 2 infantry, corps artillery, and one had a cavalry division. Thier infantry divisions had 6 infantry and 1 cavalry regiment each, and 6 batteries of varing sized Krups. From everything I've read, this fits quite well with the Prussian model of mobility and flexibility. The French play very much like they should...sluggish and unwieldly compared to their Prussian counterparts.
i. i'm seeing a regiment of jaeger per corp, and chausers a pied 1 per division
ii. artillery you have dead on
iii. yep...those numbers match all the sources i have as well...average sizes of 1000 vs 750
iv. again...dead on.
Thanks for that! So, to sum up, your infantry bases represent a regiment of three battalions, with from 15(Prussian) to 12(French) strength points. How do you then manage the fire and hitting mechanism which is based on a battalion rolling below its strength in bases? For a full strength Prussian battalion in the basic rules, they have four bases and an officer figure for a strength of 5. They have to roll 5 or less on a six sided dice to score a hit. Do you roll three dice for a regiment, and divide the remaining strength points between them? Are your artillery bases single batteries with one dice each, or multiples, and how do you carry out the process? It is a fascinating modification, however you do it.
On OOBs, a Prussian corps has, on average 25 battalions. These consist of 8 (so a division has 4, not 6) three battalion regiments and one Jaeger Battalion. There are no mullti battalion jager regiments in the Prussian army, although the Saxons have a three battalion Schutzen regiment in XII RS Corps. The French Chasseurs a Pied are also single battalions, not regiments, and are one per division. What it boils down to was the standard struture for both sides, occasionally modified by circumstances, was a division of 12 line battalions, in two brigades, each containing two regiments of three battalions. The rest were then stuck onto this skeleton.
Regards,
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 04 December 2013, 01:13:33 PM
Thanks for that! So, to sum up, your infantry bases represent a regiment of three battalions, with from 15(Prussian) to 12(French) strength points. How do you then manage the fire and hitting mechanism which is based on a battalion rolling below its strength in bases? For a full strength Prussian battalion in the basic rules, they have four bases and an officer figure for a strength of 5. They have to roll 5 or less on a six sided dice to score a hit. Do you roll three dice for a regiment, and divide the remaining strength points between them? Are your artillery bases single batteries with one dice each, or multiples, and how do you carry out the process? It is a fascinating modification, however you do it.
On OOBs, a Prussian corps has, on average 25 battalions. These consist of 8 (so a division has 4, not 6) three battalion regiments and one Jaeger Battalion. There are no mullti battalion jager regiments in the Prussian army, although the Saxons have a three battalion Schutzen regiment in XII RS Corps. The French Chasseurs a Pied are also single battalions, not regiments, and are one per division. What it boils down to was the standard struture for both sides, occasionally modified by circumstances, was a division of 12 line battalions, in two brigades, each containing two regiments of three battalions. The rest were then stuck onto this skeleton.
Regards,
Mollinary
We have simplified it a bit...one dice roll per regiment or battery. We play it straight up with the regiments...no extrapolations needed...that one regiment operates as a single entity. I guess we could really bloody it up by giving them equal dice to their number of hits left (battalions in essence). It seems bloody as is though...regiments disappear pretty quick once they get into the fight. May give that some thought though...everyone likes more fire power lol. The only problem is that with our simplified version, a single regiment has between 3-6 hits...in a single turn, a regiment would be wiped out if they received any kind of combined fire. Think we are probably better off sticking to a single die per regiment or base of artillery. What do you think? Our overall goal was to really put us in charge of the corps without the worries of what the regimental officers were doing with batallions/formations etc...
For OOB's we have to adjust a little to get the flavor of organizations...we don't have batallions. again...we are trying to keep the players operating at a higher level of command...not worrying about what the batallions are necessarily doing...only what their division is doing...regiments are in essence a pawn in their master plan.
Marcus
I think you are certainly trying to stay true to the spirit of the rules, and by the sound of it succeeding! I was interested to find out how your changes affected the balance of the game. Another factor which might modify things is what I call the "stacking limit" for 10" squares. This is eight units, with batteries counting as a half. How do you do it? If you still have eight units (ie regiments) allowed in a square, it would explain why it is so bloody, as that would give three times the troop density intended! I am still not sure what your gun models represent. Do they represent single batteries, or pairs, or groups of four? The answer would heavily affect the overall balance between infantry and artillery. It would be interesting to get Bernie's views on all this, he wrote the original rules after all. The bottom line is, however, they seem to work for you, they look good, and your group is enjoying them. Not a bad combination. :D
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 04:42:11 PM
I think you are certainly trying to stay true to the spirit of the rules, and by the sound of it succeeding! I was interested to find out how your changes affected the balance of the game. Another factor which might modify things is what I call the "stacking limit" for 10" squares. This is eight units, with batteries counting as a half. How do you do it? If you still have eight units (ie regiments) allowed in a square, it would explain why it is so bloody, as that would give three times the troop density intended! I am still not sure what your gun models represent. Do they represent single batteries, or pairs, or groups of four? The answer would heavily affect the overall balance between infantry and artillery. It would be interesting to get Bernie's views on all this, he wrote the original rules after all. The bottom line is, however, they seem to work for you, they look good, and your group is enjoying them. Not a bad combination. :D
Mollinary
Wow...i really never thought about the stacking rule and how it would be different for regiments. I honestly read the directions as full regiments...so even more batallions per square than I guess he intended if its supposed to be a cap of 8 batallions per square. Should the squares be limited to how many hit points can be in there then? As each hit is roughly a batallion...so that would in effect be around 3 regiments. As for artillery...not sure how many guns they actually would represent. When looking at the divisional composition in my resource book it shows a french division as having 2 4lb and 1 Mit...I read that as 2 batteries of 4lbers and 1 battery of Mitrailleu. So we are using 1 stand per battery. Its keeping things balanced for the organization we are using, but may not be balanced for the scale intended by TTLGB. Now I'm growing concerned that we are allowing too much fire power in a square. A square is roughly 1km x 1km...and we are placing a cap of around 8,000 men in there. I imagine that isn't too crowded over square kilometer. Are you saying the Bernie intended it to be only around 8 x 250 men...rougly 2500 men? Its good to have you as a sounding board to bounce all this off of. We really do like the results we are getting. Prussians have a decided advantage due to the artillery and manueverability of their divisions, but the French hit hard in defensive positions. So its playing prety accurately to everything I have read about the war.
The intent is eight units, ie battalions, not eight bases. So that means up to about 8,000 men in a kilometre square. If you are only allowing three of your regiments per 10"square you are staying true to the ratio, if you are allowing eight regiments in a10" square you are cramming 24,000 men in the same space! In the base rules each hit is not a battalion, it is a base, or one strength point, if you like. A battalion can have up to six strength points in the normal game ( a Prussian Guard battalion with four bases and two officer figures), but most Prussians have five, and French four. In the base game one gun model represents a battery, so if this is the same in your game, are you understating the effect of infantry fire if you only role one die per regiment as opposed to the one die per battalion intended. Ultimately the key question is not are you playing the rules as intended, but are they delivering what you want, in a way which seems realistic to you. I love their simplicity, and the way they make you concentrate on big decisions. The most important decision in our games is when you move from a manoeuvre formation (March column) to a fighting formation (line) as your manoeuvrability is then extremely limited for the rest of the game. Keeping reserves in March column is absolutely vital to being able to exploit a breakthrough. I assume you use markers to indicate this part of the rules as well?
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 05:32:09 PM
The intent is eight units, ie battalions, not eight bases. So that means up to about 8,000 men in a kilometre square. If you are only allowing three of your regiments per 10"square you are staying true to the ratio, if you are allowing eight regiments in a10" square you are cramming 24,000 men in the same space! In the base rules each hit is not a battalion, it is a base, or one strength point, if you like. A battalion can have up to six strength points in the normal game ( a Prussian Guard battalion with four bases and two officer figures), but most Prussians have five, and French four. In the base game one gun model represents a battery, so if this is the same in your game, are you understating the effect of infantry fire if you only role one die per regiment as opposed to the one die per battalion intended. Ultimately the key question is not are you playing the rules as intended, but are they delivering what you want, in a way which seems realistic to you. I love their simplicity, and the way they make you concentrate on big decisions. The most important decision in our games is when you move from a manoeuvre formation (March column) to a fighting formation (line) as your manoeuvrability is then extremely limited for the rest of the game. Keeping reserves in March column is absolutely vital to being able to exploit a breakthrough. I assume you use markers to indicate this part of the rules as well?
Mollinary
Hmmmm, I'm honestly perplexed lol. You said that 8 regiments would equate to 24,000 men...but it is my understanding (which may very well be wrong) that prussian regiments were around 1k men, and French were around 750 men. That would be around 8k men correct? Perhaps my concept of Batallion vs Regiment is skewed as some armies used them interchangeably...but I really thought these numbers were regimental. We are definately doing artillery as a battery per stand...so we are all good there. I guess the artillery is probably skewed a bit then compared to infantry fire though.
So here is how we run it...
let me know how different the rules are intended to read, as I think I'm missing some detail somehwere...we have a generic French regiment with a Combat Effectiveness of 4 and has three hits before it is removed (and we allow the regimental officer to be removed as a free hit...so really it can absorb 4 hits). It must roll its CE to hit a Prussian regiment. If it takes two hits, the owner removes the officer and one hit from the unit. So it is now at 2 hits and a combat effectiveness now of 3. It must hit on a three to cause a casualty now.
Or we can run it the same way, but getting to roll the number of dice equal to its current hits left. (does this similuate closely the way it would work for batallions...thinking that there were about three batallions in a regiment?)
Ok...thats enough questions in thie one...probably more to come.
Quote from: dedonta on 05 December 2013, 05:56:08 PM
Hmmmm, I'm honestly perplexed lol. You said that 8 regiments would equate to 24,000 men...but it is my understanding (which may very well be wrong) that prussian regiments were around 1k men, and French were around 750 men. That would be around 8k men correct? Perhaps my concept of Batallion vs Regiment is skewed as some armies used them interchangeably...but I really thought these numbers were regimental. We are definately doing artillery as a battery per stand...so we are all good there. I guess the artillery is probably skewed a bit then compared to infantry fire though.
I understand the confusion between battalions and regiments, mainly brought about them being largely interchangeable terms in the ACW, and the British army having something of a tradition of single battalion regiments. This is not the case with the Austrian, Prussian and French armies of the mid eighteenth century. All of them had an organisation which deployed regiments containing three battalions in the field. Two such regiments made a brigade, so four regiments made a division and, in the case of the Prussian and Austrians eight regiments made a full corps, about 24,000 men. With French battalions being smaller, a regiment could be 1,800 - 2,400 strong. Light troops, Jagers and Chasseurs a Pied, we're deployed in single battalions of approximately the same strength as their line brethren. Regarding artillery to infantry ratios, you would have an average of about 6-8 batteries to every 12 battalions. I will need to think about you other questions/examples, and respond later. That said, at first sight it looks like you have it about right.
Mollinary
Mollinary,
Here is an example of what we are using...
2nd Infantry Division (General Abel Douay)
1st Brigade (Gen. Pelletier de Montmarie)
16th Chasseurs Battalion
50th Line Infantry Regiment
74th Line Infantry Regiment
2nd Brigade (Gen. Pelle)
78th Line Infantry Regiment
1st Regiment of Turcos
2nd Division Artillery (Lt. Col. Cauvet)
2 Foot Artillery Batteries (4-lb. guns)
1 Mitrailleuse Battery
So in this case...we have been assuming that each of these regiments consisted of rougly 1k men...so only fielding 5k men in all for the division...in hindsight that sounds very low for a division. But I have never read anything that said a regiment consisted of more than 1000 men in a regiment (perhaps its becaue the American use of regiments was as such...1k men in a full strength regiment). If I am wrong and these regiments should be representing thousands of men each...then we need to roll more dice and have less stands in each square.
Greetings
Abel Douay's division would have one battalion of Chasseurs (in its case around 600+ men) and three battalions for each of the infantry regiments. I don't have the strength returns but Mollinary may. Generally French battalions at the opening of the campaign were often around the 600 men mark because of problems getting reservists up and their book strength was 6 companies of 130 men plus battalion/regimental staff etc I think. If I recall 1st Corp's units were better up to strength than other formations.
The Prussians have stronger battalions (typically around 1000 before the first actions). I've got the German General Staff history vol I which gives the initial regimental strengths and losses.
Regards
Edward
Hi D,
I don't have my sources with me, as I am working on a contract in Belgium until the weekend. As the campaign developed, strengths obviously changed, and by the winter many German battalions were substantially reduced. Paradoxically, many later French battalions in the republican period were actually stronger. But when the war began, in the early battles, Prussian battalions were 900-1000 strong, and a typical Prussian infantry brigade of two regiments would number in the region of 6,000 men. A full corps, with its guns and attendant cavalry, would be in the region of 30,000 men. Just to complicate matters, many Bavarian Brigades only contained five line battalions, often with an extra jäger battalion. If I remember rightly each Wurttemberg brigade had four line battalions and a jäger battalion, and the Hessian regiments had only two battalions each. But the battalions, which were the building blocks of the army, we're all roughly the same size. For your example, if all of Douay's thirteen battalions are present, one would expect a strength of between about 8 and 10,000. Remembering French battalions are substantially smaller than their Prussian opponents.
Mollinary
Just to add grist to the mill, one of the regiments in 2nd Corps was at full strength as its depot was Metz. Believe its 42em? Not got my sources to hand to check though!
So as we are playing it at the Regimental level...a generic Prussian regiment would be around 3000 men, and a French Regiment around 2000. And if I were to keep it at this scale and trying to keep it as close to the authors intent...I really should have a regiment have a hit point per 250 men...so in the case of a Prussian regiment...12 hits...does that sound correct? And a French regiment around 8 hits? Then on top of that they should be rolling more dice to represent the number of batallions in the regiment. The mass makes a lot more sense now...I was truly getting N.American organization concepts confused with European ones.
I guess in the long run it all equates out...just need to lower the number of regiments deployed in a square. I'll have to go back and read the rules to see where I got confused in organization
This would also help clarify our moral issues...divisions were getting battered and still ok on moral. 10 hits to reduce 1 level of moral isn't much when a regiment only takes 3 vs the intended multiple stands in a battalion. Seeing as most of my regiments are 1/3 the number of hits as the batallion method, i may just reduce the hits needed by 1/3 as well...so remove a moral point for every 3 hits. Things would get much more dicey much quicker. Does that make sense or have I thought too much into that?
I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present. If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base. So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five. If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four. If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos. The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time. Hope this isn't too confusing. More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares. The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion. To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three! Clear? :-\ ;) ;D
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 07:45:30 PM
I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present. If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base. So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five. If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four. If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos. The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time. Hope this isn't too confusing. More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares. The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion. To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three! Clear? :-\ ;) ;D
Mollinary
YES!! WOOHOO...it all makes sense now lol...thank you. I will contemplate converting over to the three dice attack. I would need to redo all my tags, but more dice may be more fun lol. I'll see if the group wants to move that way or just continue as we are and limit the number of regiments in a square to 3 w/ 2 batteries..and only allow 2 regiments to fire out a side (it would be a little off in numbers of battalions but be close enough). I would then cut the moral checks to a moral point per 3 hits taken. Either way...its definitely workable at the Regimental level where we want to be...just not too interested in the battalion level...too much micro managing when we are trying to play at the higher level of command. As the Corp commander I don't think you'd much care about the companies and battalions...just whether that darn regiment was plugging the hole or pushing through lol.
Thanks for the help!!!
One more question lol
how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?
Glad to help! But a final point. As you want to be a corps commander, I think you should concentrate on the brigade as your basic manoeuvre unit. That contains two regiments, not three, and should be the core of what goes in a 10" square. As soon as you are deploying three regiments into a square you are messing up the basic command structure, and splitting brigades. So, if it were me (and I emphasise it is your choice for what feels right to you) I would limit it to two regiments deployable in a square plus supporting units. By the way, I am still interested as to how you mark whether a unit is in march or combat formation?
Mollinary
Quote from: dedonta on 05 December 2013, 08:33:36 PM
One more question lol
how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?
If you have one model per battery, as in the basic rules, and they are rolling one die per model, then they should sustain hits exactly as in the basic rules. If one model represents two batteries, then it should roll two fire dice, and take twice the hits as in the basic rules, deducted equally from the fire dice.
Mollinary
good point on the brigade per square...I like that and will implement that.
oh ya...to mark column vs deployed into battle formation we simply put the CO on the stand with the infantry, then when they have deployed he is moved to the rear of the stand or front...but off the stand itself. simple and easy to see. I have given all my regiments a CO in our games...if we do the campaign and there is a weaker unit, i'll simply lower the starting strength but leave the CO so we can still use him to mark formation and use it as a casualty (from what I gather in the rules, that's all the CO is used for anyway).
So for artillery, its one battery and fires one die in our game as well...however we are giving it three hits...that gives it a lot of staying power compared to regiments (who also have 3 hits). I'm thinking they should be more fragile than the infantry...what do you think? Wouldn't be an issue if I change the infantry to have as many hits as intended (12 to 15 per regiment), but if we leave it the way we have played it this past month the artillery needs to be adjusted don't you think?
Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round. To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve). On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.
Mollinary
PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!
M
Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round. To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve). On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.
Mollinary
PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!
M
another great suggestion...thanks!
Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round. To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve). On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.
Mollinary
PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!
M
Photos look amazing!!!! What are the dials you talk about in the post to help with the bookkeeping? can't really see them in the photos
I am going to run these two options by the guys to see how we should address the scale issues that I've discovered with your help...which do you think works best:
Option 1:
We leave everything as is for labels (troop strengths and CE), but we
•limit the number of men per square mile to one brigade or 2 regiments with their artillery assets. In essence you'd be able to field around 8 hits worth of strength in 1 square mile (this is more in line with the rules as they were written...but they had it broken down to battalions...and I don't want that kind of micro managing in our game)
•You'd continue to only be able to fire 4 points worth out of a single edge of the square...so one regiment and an artillery stand. We'd see the same effects, but it would force us to use reserves as you couldn't bring an entire corps up into one or two squares like we did the last two games.
•Moral for the corps would stay the same, but you'd deduct a moral point for every 3 hits (as it is all the numbers I originally had are 1/3 of what the author intended...so the moral should be adjusted likewise)
Simple fix but not many dice to roll lol
Option 2 (more dice to throw)
For this I'd need to redo the labels, and we'd keep a bit more 'bookkeeping'.
•Each regiment would get three attack dice to represent on die per battalion in the regiment. You'd still only be able to roll four dice per edge of the square
•limit to a square is one brigade plus assets (so 2 regiments and a couple guns)
•Hit points are no longer only 3!! Regiments now have 3 battalions x their CE - so the Prussians would have around 15 hits/regiment, and French 12/regiment...more staying power in theory, but you're getting hit with more dice
•Your CE would adjust just like we did this past week...but it would mean dividing your hits by 3 (because you have 3 battalions in each regiment...and they are absorbing hits evenly below the surface). So a regiment at 15 hits and a CE of 5 still hits on 5's with the three dice. Then after it has taken 3 hits and is down to 12 total, would need to hit on a new CE of 4. etc...
•Moral would stay the same...1 point deducted for every 10 hits
Appreciate your feedback my friend!!
I think either of your options would probably work, and it is entirely down to your crew as to which they would prefer. The second option seems to me closer to the original rules intention, but what is more important is how it plays for you.
Just to take the stacking limit thing to its conclusion. If you keep your current number of batteries in option two, you could deploy up to four in the square with your brigade, as they count as half a unit each. Bernie did this to allow the creation of the mass batteries which existed in real life. They also fire out of the side of a square as half units, so you can actually roll up to eight artillery dice out of a side, if there are eight or more batteries in the square! For cavalry the regiment is the unit, and so up to eight regiments can be deployed in a square, so , for example, you could probably get the Prussian Guard Cavalry division in a square.
Enjoyed this exchange, reminded me how much I enjoy these rules!
Mollinary
PS the dials are the circles with Prussian, Saxon, Hessian, Guard, or French flags on them which you should just be able to see in every square occupied by troops. The post is from September 2010, by the way, I just realised there is another Gravelotte St Privat on the board, impressively played out on a large photographic map. In each of the circles a wedge is missing and the dial shows through. You simply move it show the current casualty number. I just used them. To keep track of casualties as caused, and before base removal. You could use them instead of book keeping. I know that there is a British manufacturer which produces mdf dials which go up to 12 which would probably do the trick.
M