The recent post by Fenton and having spent quite a while helping out at trade stalls at the various Wargames shows got me thinking on what is a realistic price of wargames figures and paraphanalia.
I spent several years helping out a couple of freinds on the Wargames Show circuit and more recently have done the last two Salute's with another freind. I do not have any financial interest in any wargames company, these are just my the observations. I have run my own business in the past and so do have an appreciation of what is involved with running a business.
Of the Traders I have got to know over the years and there are quite a few, very few seem to ba making a huge profit. Yes there are exceptions with some of the very big manaufacturer and dealers. but these can be counted on the fingers on one hand. Neither do I believe Techno or the other sculptors make a fortune, unless Techno has a new Porshe hidden away :)
Most of the owners of the established companies have to have a "real" job to pay the bills and put food on the table. Some will employ one or two people to cast ot pack the orders. Again none of these employees seems to be paid much more than a basic wage- often I suspect its nearer the minimum wage than the UK average. On freind worked for one well known small wargames company casting and looking after the shop.he left to become a traffic warden as it DOUBLED his salary. This is not knocking his employer as he seems to be a fair and honest man who paid his staff what the company could afford.
The costs involved in producing our figures and terrain run far beyond the cost of the lead and someone to cast them. I am sure there are others out there (Leon or Dave) who copuld give a better idea, but the basics:-
Masters
Master mould
Production Moulds
Metal/rein for casting
Acomoodation
Time/staff cost to actually produce figures and pack them
I believe a basic range of 10mm costs in the region of £1200 to get to the production process ( just masters and moulds) and then you still don't know how many you are going to sell
Show costs-
Van
Fuel
Petrol
Stand ( Salute was about £700 for a 12' stand)
Accomodation.
To attend Salute ( I live an hours drive fronm Excel) I had to get up at 04:30 on Saturday morning. I got home at 21:00 that evening. after a 16.5 hour day
Ok so thats the basics, on top of that you have the usual set up and running costs of machinery and fuel bills. Then you have to pay your staff.
While none of us like to pay more than we have to for something, this is a specilised product.
Questions:-
1 Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?
2 Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)
3 Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?
4 I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).
5 Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?
PLEASE NOTE :- THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS WHAT WE FEEL IS A FAIR PRICE FOR OUR HOBBY. Please do not ask for justification of prices or use it to
complain about any manufacturer
Well said, Orcs. Someone needed to. We hear so much carping and moaning about prices that a reality check was well overdue. Having now retired after ten years in the retail industry I can assure anyone out there that whatever the profit margins on wargames figures may be I doubt that they come anywhere near what is charged in the real world. For instance, your £5,000 lounge suite probably cost between £1,000 and £1,500 wholesale. You do the arithmetic.
The wargames product may cost pence in materials, but added to the overheads already mentioned how about - debt servicing (if you borrow money to set up you have to pay it back, usually with interest), power and utilities (to drive machinery or just to keep warm), council and water rates (they both want their cut), and marketing (even the smallest companies usually need to advertise)? It all adds up.
The company we all love to hate charges premium prices. It also has a hard-nosed attitude that we detest. But it's also a stockmarket listed company - one of the very few in our hobby. It didn't get there by under-selling itself. Think back over the years as to how many small wargames companies have gone to the wall - dozens, quite literally. Mainly because they failed to operate on a commercial basis.
Finally, how do our prices compare with other established modelling hobbies? Well, model railway locomotive - £100 and upwards; A-Class model racing yacht with radio control - not much change out of £1,000; dolls house with full furnishings, internal lighting and quality dolls - £500 minimum. Gentlemen, I'd say we're getting it cheap.
Questions:-
1 Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?
2 Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)
3 Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?
4 I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).
5 Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?
Indeed, indeed. Often one neglects it is the overheads (you mentioned some of them). Yet the question how other companies can run at significantly lower costs persists. One of the answers is the huge shop system and you would be quick to believe it. I counter that with the question how much money comes in additionally by HAVING those retail outlets..... If those were not profitable GW would close them.
Answers:
1. I would hope not. That would mean Leon and Dave are making losses and that would not be good for me in the long run.
2. Depends on the seller. Also depends on what you define as "value". The GW like behaviour aside I do not like Battlefront's system at all so no value for me. Other companies offer me a great value (Pendraken/Mantic...). If directly asked how much I was willing to pay for say 10 figures in 10mm my immediate answer would be up to 3 quid if they are good and I do not need that many. If I need hordes then 2 quid would be my ceiling (apply inflation normally).
3. Who is the manufacturer? May it be inconvenient for the person actually working it is often a neccessity to satisfy business needs. The question if it pays off for them should be asked. Personally I do not mind waiting a day or two for the latest range and lets face it there are many ranges already to suit many tastes....
4. No! Work-Life balance is important. In summary lets just say a happy Leon is a productive Leon and only then we can enjoy our hobby in the long run.
5. Depends on who is the seller. Leon and Dave, definately yes. Mantic? Sure. A few others, thats alright. GW, Battlefront, most certainly NOT! As usual this works both ways back and forth.
I suppose having posed the questions I should at least give my answers
Questions:-
1 Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?
In general believe we are. As Herts has shown with other hobbies. If you look at going to Football, Golf , the Gym they are all more expensive than our hobby
2 Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)
With most manufacturers I think we already have a price that is in the buyers favour. When you add the service of some companies particuarly Pendraken I feel we are being subsidised. -ie No premium to specify particular figures or requesting an extra MG base or oficer figure
3 Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?
The manufacturer and his employees should be able to pay the bills with a fairly standard 40 hour week - I appreciate that with your own business you often do far more than this ,but I am talking the ideal here
4 I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).
Just look at the hours Leon works - I know this is not unusual. Andy Grubb of Grubby tanks even takes stuff to sort on family holidays
5 Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?
I am as I think Wargaming is a cheap hobby.
Work out the cost per hour on a £100 army. Thats 25 packs of Pendraken.
I can paint a pack in 3-4 hours 75 hours
Gaming 10 games of 3-4 hours 40 hours
Total of 115 hours so we are already at 86p per hour. Even if you don't like the painting you are still at £2.50 an hour if you throw the army in the bin after 10 games. What can you do for entertainment/relaxation for less than £2.50 an hour? (ignore the obvious as this has hiddden costs :D)
For some reason I got the Johnny Rotten butter advert "... well it's their choice", but this is a knee jerk ungracious, and not a serious answer.
I think I differentiate between companies in it for the money (e.g. GW, since we're on a bashing session) and companies like Pendraken which one feels (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is run by enthusiasts who happen to make (hopefully) a living out of what they love.
I have a a lot of figures that I plan to buy from Pendraken (though my plan is always adjusted upwards by the new ranges) so I feel it behooves me to ensure that Pendraken remains in business. If that means spending a little more so that the good forge masters can keep going in reasonable mental and physical health, then I feel morally that it's the right thing to do.
I appreciate the huge number of ranges Pendraken offer, but didn't before this thread realise how much the overheads in setting up a single casting are.
May I just add, Just a Few Orcs, that this is an excellent thread and thank you for it.
However, I still want my Centurion.
Well, first off, a great topic!
I'm immediately going to say, i choose pendraken for their great prices, i have a fairly modest income (to put it lightly), so i only spend money i get for birthdays, christmass etc..
I have been gaming in 28 mm for more than a decade, but this resulted in taking years to get an army togheter, always buying small bits at a time. Since i started buying from Leon and Dave, i have purchased 5 armies in about the same amount of months :D
Their price is great. However, if they feel they can't cope anymore and they up their prices, you won't hear me complain. They would still be reasonable ;)
I know what it's like to count up at the end of the month and checking if i have anything left to spend. For companies that's the same thing, they count up to see if they break even and make profit.
And that's where the problems lie most of the time. Some companies can break even more easy than others. Pendraken offers (in my humble opinion) premium sculpts. Some companies, not calling them by name, will have the same product but maybe with less detail and quality. Maybe their cost of making it will be much less. Now if the quality is double you could ask for a better price, but by doing this you might stop being competitive.
We can't really guess that bit of info right there. Only the pendraken gents know their sale numbers and profits, and how price increaes/ decreases influence that. So i think it is for them to balance their price to their optimal sale output.
Taking the evil empire example, 15% price rise, 1% sale increase, shows us that it is sometimes better to sell a bit lower and have more sales than sell higher and have less.
As stated this is something pendraken has to 'feel' i guess, so i can't realy say much about it.
Only thing i can say is that i hope they have a great turnout, just like their service!!
Hope this makes sense, always a bit hard to express stuff like this in a foreign language :-[
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 29 April 2013, 08:16:31 AM
Neither do I believe Techno or the other sculptors make a fortune, unless Techno has a new Porshe hidden away :)
No Porshe here Orcs......a 12 year old (?) Ford Fiesta held together by rust for me.
But I really enjoy what I do..and you can't ask for a lot more in life than that. :)
Cheers - Phil.
Chiming in (once more). Took me only 28 years of my life and almost 10 years of my work life.
Telling my boss to shove it resulted in apreciation and a payrise and since then I only do things I like. So much better for my inner stability.
Call it philosophy or wishful thinking but you should seriously try to arrange your life to what YOU want to. Hate your job - get another one. All that is required -and easier said than done- is taking another perspective.
Quote from: Techno on 29 April 2013, 08:49:03 PM
No Porshe here Orcs......a 12 year old (?) Ford Fiesta held together by rust for me.
It's Leon who has the Porche ;D
Chaps,
You could MAKE a Porsche ... turreted King Tiger.
After the Centurion is released, of course.
I guess makers charge what they think the market can stand, only Tesco and their ilk can afford loss leaders. At the end of the day, it's the customer who decides if the item is worth the price and pays the money.
Quote from: SV52 on 30 April 2013, 08:41:42 AM
I guess makers charge what they think the market can stand, only Tesco and their ilk can afford loss leaders.
Wargames can do loss leaders. For example, you buy a bargain-buy give-away 10mm figure of Napoleon. Thinks, I've got this superb figure of Napoleon. Um... I know, I'll buy a French army to go with it. Sorted.
Quote from: WeeWars on 30 April 2013, 11:19:55 AM
Wargames can do loss leaders. For example, you buy a bargain-buy give-away 10mm figure of Napoleon. Thinks, I've got this superb figure of Napoleon. Um... I know, I'll buy a French army to go with it. Sorted.
"You may very well think so, but I couldn't possibly comment." ;)
Interesting thread, and the short answer is that yes, a lot of products in our industry are artificially low. There's a variety of reasons for it, but I'll dig out some figures and put together a better response.
8)
Pendraken have an excellently huge range (we'll come to chariot armies later shall we?) and this hugeness is part of the reason I have nailed my standard to the Pendraken mast.
Pithead (if I may be excused for using that word) produce a wider WWII range, but only WWII. There's a difference in philosophy, difference in overheads.
Generalist or specialist?
Quote from: fsn on 05 May 2013, 09:20:15 AM
Pendraken have an excellently huge range (we'll come to chariot armies later shall we?) and this hugeness is part of the reason I have nailed my standard to the Pendraken mast.
Pithead (if I may be excused for using that word) produce a wider WWII range, but only WWII. There's a difference in philosophy, difference in overheads.
Generalist or specialist?
I think there might be a difference in quality too though from first sight. I know some here use their stuff too as i have seen them; but their infantry looks so flimsy. One of the reasons i didn't start on their belgium line...
Pendraken, make a nelgium 1940 line!!!!!! Please!!
I have a signigicant amout of both Pithead and Pendraken. I have found the following
Pendraken and Pithead figures mix well, none of them are flimsy.
Pithead figures often have better poses.
Pendraken figures are better sculpts
Pithead vehicles often have crew members
Pithead vehicles are larger than Pendraken, but will mix as long as you do not have vehicles of the same type from both manufacturers.
Pithead range often contains stuff that would not be comercial for Pendraken to make.
Pendraken make a far more diverse range of 10mm
I would happily recommend both manufacturers.
I agree with JaF Orcs about Pithead vs Pendraken.
I certainly don't have any flimsy Pithead figures - are you sure you are not thinking of Minifigs - which are very slender chaps.
QuotePithead figures often have better poses.
Pendraken figures are better sculpts
This puts it well - I have been trying for a while to describe the differences between the two lines. The Pithead British are very nice for late war with lots of kit - just like photos of normandy.
QuotePithead vehicles often have crew members
Pithead vehicles are larger than Pendraken, but will mix as long as you do not have vehicles of the same type from both manufacturers.
Most Pithead vehicles are quite a bit larger than Pendraken - and I think the Pithead ones have a lot of extra detail, as they are typically 4 or 5 parts compared to 1 or 2 for Pendraken.
Coming back to Price - Pendraken are the cheapest 10mm around, especially for cavalry. Most of the 10mm manufacturers are fairly similar in cost for infantry (excluding GW and Eureka) but Pendraken cavalry and tanks are quite a bit cheaper (not that I've made a detailed price comparison for a while).
Quote from: fred 12df on 05 May 2013, 11:31:29 AM
Coming back to Price - Pendraken are the cheapest 10mm around, especially for cavalry. Most of the 10mm manufacturers are fairly similar in cost for infantry (excluding GW and Eureka) but Pendraken cavalry and tanks are quite a bit cheaper (not that I've made a detailed price comparison for a while).
August 2012 10mm (Napoleonic related) prices:
www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost40.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost40.htm)
Quote from: fsn on 05 May 2013, 09:20:15 AM
Pithead produce a wider WWII range, but only WWII.
Hehe, I 've noticed that claim on their homepage! Only wider in terms of nations covered, the actual size of their ranges is smaller than ours, by a couple of hundred codes. (I was sad enough to check one day... :-[ )
Industrial espionage Leon ?
IanS
The guy running Pithead lives 15 mins walk from
me and as far as I can tell works from home.
Not the same scenario as Pendraken at all.
Chad
Quote from: ianrs54 on 05 May 2013, 03:52:55 PM
Industrial espionage Leon ?
More curiosity really, I'd always thought we had the most comprehensive WWII range, so did a bit of a tally up one day to see.
Quote from: WeeWars on 05 May 2013, 11:39:55 AM
August 2012 10mm (Napoleonic related) prices:
www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost40.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost40.htm)
I stand corrected. I don't want to disrespect Pithead, but their Churchill looked too slender and graceful. Not like a real Churchill.
My point was that suppliers have to decide whether to specialise or be more general, and there are pressures on both strategies.
Quote from: fsn on 05 May 2013, 07:01:03 PM
I stand corrected. I don't want to disrespect Pithead, but their Churchill looked too slender and graceful. Not like a real Churchill.
My point was that suppliers have to decide whether to specialise or be more general, and there are pressures on both strategies.
Order! Order! There's a big red sign at the beginning of this thread which says quite catagorically that it's not for complaining about other manufacturers.
(Mine's a pint of lager, by the way)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 14 May 2013, 09:05:34 AM
Order! Order! There's a big red sign at the beginning of this thread which says quite catagorically that it's not for complaining about other manufacturers.
(Mine's a pint of lager, by the way)
No disrespect to Pithead at all. It was an aesthetic viewpoint I was offering. Their Churchill just looks too nice. The Pendraken one is ugly and workmanlike, and that's how I like my Churchills.
I forgot to come back to this one, so apologies for that. Right then, going on our accounts, this is roughly how the costs stack up, as a percentage of total turnover:-
25% - Metal
12% - Postage
8% - VAT
7.5% - Design and moulding
7% - Unit costs
7% - Shows
6% - Part time staff
2% - Stationary
Then there's a few other smaller expenses, like gas for the melting pots, banking fees, magazine advertising, website hosting, and all manner of other random bills, which accounts for another 5% or so. So, that's almost 80% gone in expenses. The remaining 20% is our wages. :(
Ideally, our prices should be higher, but it's unfair to keep whacking price increases on the product every 12 months. We've got a slight hangover from the previous decade, when we went 7-8 years without touching the pricing, and that's left us a little behind where we should be. In the 10mm market, we've probably got the highest overheads, plus we release more new stuff than 90% of the whole hobby I'd think (1000 new figure codes/products since the start of 2010?), so our design budget is a lot higher than most.
Ideally, we would be somewhere closer to MM's pricing, so around £5 per pack, but I'm not going to jump us there in one go. We'll probably have a price increase around the start of 2014, taking us to £4.50 a pack, and then another one 18 months or so after that. As long as the basic costs like metal / unit / postage don't jump up, then that should be fine. Hopefully people will still see us as value for money at those prices?
This is why I tend to shake my head slightly when I see new companies coming into the smaller scales. If you want nice profit margins, you need to go with the bigger scales. Your sculpting costs might be higher, but you can have the figures moulded and cast at a decent price without the need for metal, machines, premises, staff and VAT if you're a small business. Your only overheads would be a website initially, and a bit of postage/packaging. You could get someone to stock the range at a show for a commission, and you wouldn't even have to leave the house!
Anyhoo, I'm sure there'll be some questions on all that, so fire away and I'll do my best to answer them.
8)
I would look at that and consider your business unsustainable... unless you are selling in excess of 1,000,000 figures per annum (33,000 packs).
Your rational of increasing your prices is a must but you are right to do it staggered as you suggest, but I'd do it sooner rather than later. As you mention your main competitors are charging £5.00 a pack for something that is similar and not investing in so many new codes. We can all be busy fools.
Not my business, and I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs, but I would increases prices to £4.50 now and then £5.00 in 12 months and use some of the additional funds to invest in good quality website images because if you are selling at the same price as your competitors you will lose out on the fact you have no images. At the same price new potential customers will buy the one they can see.
Just having good images on the site would increase your turnover dramatically... but you know this :)
I don't think your existing customer base would be put off by any increase considering the other factors such as excellent customer service and good QC.
Quote from: Leon on 14 May 2013, 02:44:47 PM
Hopefully people will still see us as value for money at those prices?
Even if you do it right now in one go, i'd still be buying ;)
I'm one of those guys who has a budget and has to stay to it :'(
So if the prices go up, i just match my order to the money available.
And regarding the pithead guys being flimsy, it's just a matter of opinion when i look at the pictures, i have nothing against Pithead and think they do a really good job, but that was my first impression. If i look through thheir catalogue, i notice they have some stuff missing that pendraken has and vice versa BUT pendraken has more standard kit and more widely usable (again in my opinion). Only thing i really really like in the pithead catalogue is the panzer 'luchs'. Leon!! make a panzer Luchs please 8->
Quote from: petercooman on 14 May 2013, 05:56:48 PM
I'm one of those guys who has a budget and has to stay to it :'(
... and does not Friend Coonan put is finger neatly on the pulse? We (the customers) are doing our bit - feeding the dog cheap dog food, missing the children's dental appointments and becoming inveterate round-dodgers just to feed our Pendraken habit? We are unlikely to spend more, just buy less. Pendraken revenue isn't necessarily going to rise that much, though production costs will of course go down.
Quote from: Matt of Munslow on 14 May 2013, 03:53:29 PM
I would look at that and consider your business unsustainable... unless you are selling in excess of 1,000,000 figures per annum (33,000 packs).
I wouldn't say unsustainable, we've managed 21 years, but I know what you mean. We'd need more than that as well, a £250k turnover would be about enough to give both of us something approaching a decent wage for the hours we do!
The main reason is that there's never been a real profit margin built into the pack prices, which was fine when it was Dave working part-time in the evenings as a hobby business. As we've got bigger though, the price increases have only covered a new bill, so we had an increase for our first part-time caster, an increase when we went VAT, and one when we moved into the unit. So, whilst the prices are higher, we still don't have much profit.
The photo's is a big thing, and I'm very reluctant to hit £5 a pack until we have pics of all the products on the website. I'd also want to be down to a 7 day turnaround on the mail orders as well, so that we're competing effectively on all aspects of the business.
Is a 7 Day Turn around really necessary?
I can understand its desirability in these days of instant gratification, but I don't think wargamers fall into that bracket. If we did we would be either buying prepainted figures or playing computer or board games.
It is a slow process organising an army, placing an order, painting the units until we get to the finished army.(Are they ever finished?) I don't think any wargamer out there would be have nothing to paint, base tinker with while he waits a couple of weeks for an order. It simply puts presure on you to fulfil the order quickly and makes your cashflow tighter. I would have thought most of your customers would accept a two week turnaround as fast and possibly 3-4 weeks fully acceptable.
As long as you manage peoples expectations and communicate with them most people are happy.
May I quote from the Gauls thread? "The problem with over-animated poses is, without sufficient variety of poses, they look more like a troupe of formation dancers than a troop of warriors..."
May I suggest you get a feel for what we really want? What we really, really want? For example, would we (the loyal customers) stand for fewer poses? I'm not consistent here. I want a bit of life in my barbarians and post 1900 figures, and will stand some variety in the ACW, but I really, really want only one pose in my Napoleonic units. (Charles Grant be praised!)
Also, how many NEW customers do you get from shows? How much do you sell to one-off customers? What are the key shows to attend?
If the price goes up to £5 per pack, are we (your loyal customer base) all going to rush off to Magister Militum? (they do have chariot armies, but no likelihood of Centurions in 10mm.)
May I suggest a survey of sorts? Something you could do on line and notify by sticking something in the orders for a month or so, with perhaps some incentive for return? That way you could find out how important a 7 day turn around would be, the importance of adding new ranges (after the Centurion of course) and acceptable pricing.
I wonder if you techie wunder-kid could get something on the forum? If not, Survey Monkey is easy to use. (I use it for work and would be happy to set up and admin it for you - for free.)
Just a wee read and would object to the "instant gratification" notion.
There are wargamers that are absolutely comfortable waiting for the figures, depending on several factors. I know one outfit that has 30+ days turnaround which is ok in their case and I accept it.
But then there are other gamers who demand "now and here". GW is a good example that satisfies those. The drawback is price levels I consider almost obscene and a tight regime on what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Pendraken turnaround is very, very fast and if not instantly I would grant them almost instant gratification. Then there is the "quality" issue. I have received nothing but the best service and products plus an occasional chat with the Master (Leon) himself. Not that I am encouraging a price rise but even if the prices were increased reasonably I would not fall out with gaming or Pendraken.
Not only is it legitimate that Leon and Co. earn a living wage in their job, I would argue that this is in MY best interest as well. We as gamers should also realise that manufacturers could decide to seek another occupation which would be detrimental to our hobby pleasures.
Hear! Hear!
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 15 May 2013, 03:34:34 AM
Is a 7 Day Turn around really necessary?
I can understand its desirability in these days of instant gratification, but I don't think wargamers fall into that bracket. If we did we would be either buying prepainted figures or playing computer or board games.
The vast majority of people are fine with it, but you'd be surprised how many emails I get along the lines of, "I placed an order 3 days ago, and it's not arrived yet, can you tell me what the problem is...?" There's a lot of people out there, and it may be the ones coming into 10mm from more 'professional' gaming genre's where things are packaged in shiny boxes with shrink wrapping, who expect us to have everything sat on shelves waiting to be shipped out. With 3500 codes, and needing an average of 5-10 of each in stock, we'd have around £100k of stock sitting here! :o Pitch that as a business model on Dragon's Den and you'd get an 'I'm Out!' within seconds.
Quote from: fsn on 15 May 2013, 07:25:54 AM
Also, how many NEW customers do you get from shows? How much do you sell to one-off customers? What are the key shows to attend?
Bit of an unknown quantity that one I'm afraid. I have tried tracking new orders from within a 50 mile radius of a show, but there's no way of knowing whether it's a direct link. We do get people coming to the stand at almost every show though, who have never looked at 10mm as a scale before, so it's a good shop window. Over the past couple of years we've cut out the shows which weren't that profitable as well.
Quote from: fsn on 15 May 2013, 07:25:54 AM
May I suggest a survey of sorts? Something you could do on line and notify by sticking something in the orders for a month or so, with perhaps some incentive for return? That way you could find out how important a 7 day turn around would be, the importance of adding new ranges (after the Centurion of course) and acceptable pricing.
I wonder if you techie wunder-kid could get something on the forum? If not, Survey Monkey is easy to use. (I use it for work and would be happy to set up and admin it for you - for free.)
Interesting idea, and something to think about. :-\
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 15 May 2013, 09:42:54 AM
Not only is it legitimate that Leon and Co. earn a living wage in their job, I would argue that this is in MY best interest as well. We as gamers should also realise that manufacturers could decide to seek another occupation which would be detrimental to our hobby pleasures.
Dave still does have another occupation! :D
Quote from: fsn on 14 May 2013, 07:45:14 PM
... and does not Friend Coonan put is finger neatly on the pulse? We (the customers) are doing our bit - feeding the dog cheap dog food, missing the children's dental appointments and becoming inveterate round-dodgers just to feed our Pendraken habit? We are unlikely to spend more, just buy less. Pendraken revenue isn't necessarily going to rise that much, though production costs will of course go down.
Actually, i buy nothing of my hobby stuff from the monthly pay, i just use the money i generate from selling old stuff and projects, and money i get for christmass, birthday etc...
My dog gets premium dog food and i don't go to the child's dental appointment because they will fall out and replace themselves anyway in a year or 2 :O)
Actually, i think a 7 day turn around would be a good target to aim at.
My last few orders have been around the 14 day mark which means i've often forgotten what i ordered or why. @-)
Hehe...
Quote from: Luddite on 15 May 2013, 05:41:31 PM
Actually, i think a 7 day turn around would be a good target to aim at.
My last few orders have been around the 14 day mark which means i've often forgotten what i ordered or why. @-)
Hehe...
Surely thats a reason for Leon to extend the turn around- then you will order the stuff again :) or your interest will have moved on and you will order from another range. Then you can say to Mrs Luddite " I don't remember ordering these " quite honestly :d
Quote from: Leon on 15 May 2013, 03:06:15 PM
Dave still does have another occupation! :D
Didn't know that but still. If he/you make a loss in this venture why would you stay in it?
Business, in principle, should always be profitable. And I really mean what I said, that it is in MY very own interest that Pendraken and Minibits stay open for a few more decades/millenia...
Quote from: Leon on 14 May 2013, 02:44:47 PM
Ideally, we would be somewhere closer to MM's pricing, so around £5 per pack,
I have been bricking it. I've been buying WWII and the infantry packs are £1.35, and have been losing sleep over a potential 300% price hike. :-[
I'm hoping the £5 packs are the ones currently priced at £4.
Quote from: fsn on 16 May 2013, 05:14:22 PM
I have been bricking it. I've been buying WWII and the infantry packs are £1.35, and have been losing sleep over a potential 300% price hike. :-[
I'm hoping the £5 packs are the ones currently priced at £4.
=O :D
Yep, that would be the £4 packs!
1.35 to 5... sounds like someone was buying too much GW in the past :-\
How dare you Sir! I may be stupid, but I have never, ever bought GW!
Quote from: fsn on 16 May 2013, 09:41:28 PM
How dare you Sir! I may be stupid, but I have never, ever bought GW!
I beg your pardon, but I insist on saying "sounds like" not that you actually did commit such despicable nonsense. 8)
:)
Quote from: fsn on 15 May 2013, 07:25:54 AM
May I suggest you get a feel for what we really want? What we really, really want? For example, would we (the loyal customers) stand for fewer poses? I'm not consistent here. I want a bit of life in my barbarians and post 1900 figures, and will stand some variety in the ACW, but I really, really want only one pose in my Napoleonic units. (Charles Grant be praised!)
FSN brings up a very interesting point there.
Much easier for Leon to 'get his money back' and start making a profit on some ranges than it is on others, as his design costs will/could be so much smaller.
I haven't gone into this properly, and as you know I very rarely get the chance to actually game so you'll have to help here.
With figures like 'command groups'.....Are these sold at an equivalent price to the figures that form the bulk of any army ?
I only ask, as I charge Leon the same for a new 'leader/standard bearer/musician/whatever' as I do for a 'grunt' in whatever pose and with whatever weaponry he carries.
(It's far simpler to do it this way.....If I charged an 'hourly rate', I'd be charging Leon
far more for certain figures.....They take me a lot longer to make...Sometimes at least twice as long. But it's swings and roundabouts and it all
sort of balances itself up in the end.)
Fairly apparent, even to me, that folk won't be buying platoons of 'chiefs'.......So it will take Leon far, far longer to break even on figures such as these.
By their very nature you won't need as many of these in whatever army you're going to be gaming with.
BUT.....They've got to be made....The army has to have at least one command group.....Yes ?
OK.....The 'grunts', in a way, subsidize the design costs on command packs.
But should items such as those mentioned above be priced higher than others ?.....Are they ?
Just thought I'd throw that in (and show my ignorance again.)
Cheers - Phil.
Most makes of figures either sell their command packs at a higher price or sell them at the same price but with fewer figures than the "grunt" packs. The last seems the best course since, as Phil points out, one needs far less of the command groups. Sod's Law, however, always dictates that, however many command groups you need, you will always have one or two left over. :(
Command groups are an interesting area. Take a British Napoleonic battalion. You will only ever want 2 ensigns. If you have a 12 figure battn - 2 flags. 48 figure bttn - 2 colours max. However, you may choose to have a variable number of officers. for a 12 fig bttn, probably one will suffice, but by the time you get to a 48 fig bttn then you'll probably want to pepper the ranks with a few more officers. You may also want to give your light infantry buglers rather than drummers.
I'd be more than happy if command figures were sold in say packs of 5 and at a higher (slightly) per figure cost.
I haven't dipped my toe into Pendraken Napoleonics yet, but am somewhat daunted by the "30 figures" tag. Presumably this includes command figures, but how many? It doesn't matter how many, because the figure will be wrong for someone's (probably most people's) wants. I foresee my 40 figure bttns creating a long line of out of work ensigns.
It's even worse than that for the French, fsn. After 1809 Napoleon decreed that his infantry should carry only one eagle per regiment (i.e. 2 - 4 battalions). I can predict entire forests of redundant eagles.
Thanks for that cheering thought.
No need to be that elaborate (Command Groups). Look at GW (in dismay if you prefer).
It also depends on
-prospective sales
-usability of the unit ("good" units are more expensive than "not so good" ones although same amount of material, packaging etc.)
So imho special packs like Command groups should be more expensive (you need less) and/ or contain less figures. I think that is only fair.
Take your 4 bttn 1812 French regiment.
At 12 figures per bttn you'd want perhaps 1 officer, 1 drummer per bttn + 1 standard: 4 officers, 4 drummers, 1 ensign and 39 privates.
At 20 figures per bttn you'd want maybe 2 officers, 1 drummers per bttn + 1 standard: 8 officers, 4 drummers, 1 ensign and 67 privates.
At 42 figures per bttn, each company could have an officer and a drummer/bugler: 24 officers, 18 drummers, 6 buglers, still only 1 ensign plus bags of privates.
If a command pack is (I'm using Pendraken ACW command here) 5 officers, 5 drummers and 5 ensigns you need:
1 pack for the 12 fig bttns, with 6 spare
2 packs for the 20 fig bttns, with 17 spare
5 packs for the 42 fig bttns with 26 spare.
Using the 5 figs of one type pack, you'd need 3, 4 and 12 x 5 figure packs with 5, 7 & 11 spare. Much more efficient!
And if the packs were designed "per unit" ? :P
But then someone like me would say that they only want this and that and that it is inconvenient.... ergo: No matter what you do someone will want it different. And I am sure within reason Leon is all ears about "special wishes".
Must say I once asked him to do an "only pulse rifles" SF2 pack for me.
I was suggesting a flexible alternative to a "unit" pack. The 30 pack for infantry figures and packs of 5 officers, drummers, ensigns and buglers. That would make for example, 5 codes for French Peninsula Napoleonic Line Infantry rather than 1, but hey, I can live with that.
Indeed, one alternative of many. :)
Quote from: fsn on 15 May 2013, 07:25:54 AM
For example, would we (the loyal customers) stand for fewer poses? I'm not consistent here. I want a bit of life in my barbarians and post 1900 figures, and will stand some variety in the ACW, but I really, really want only one pose in my Napoleonic units. (Charles Grant be praised!)
I like variety in all of the ranges. I think it's one of Pendraken's great competitive differentiators that makes it stand out from other manufacturers. If anything the Nap ranges could use even more variety, if I compare them to some of the other ranges (AWI, ACW, FCW, WWII). It's what brings an army to life and distinguishes it from just a line of tin men. I would be happy to pay more for more "exotic poses or figures" of a given range.
Quote from: quasar42 on 18 May 2013, 09:26:13 AM
I would be happy to pay more for more "exotic poses or figures"
i recomment Ground Zero Games "Gentlemens Collection " if you want "exotic" poses ;) ;), or possibly though you are just on the wrong forum :-/ :-/
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 18 May 2013, 06:45:18 PM
i recomment Ground Zero Games "Gentlemens Collection " if you want "exotic" poses ;) ;), or possibly though you are just on the wrong forum :-/ :-/
;D ???
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 18 May 2013, 06:45:18 PM
i recomment Ground Zero Games "Gentlemens Collection " if you want "exotic" poses ;) ;), or possibly though you are just on the wrong forum :-/ :-/
Thank you. For the poses that you have in mind, I prefer the real thing. Unlike you, I have no need for surrogates.
Quote from: quasar42 on 19 May 2013, 05:08:21 PM
Thank you. For the poses that you have in mind, I prefer the real thing. Unlike you, I have no need for surrogates.
=O =O =O =O
No need for surrogates here - My life is complicated enough on the Totty front
Well...two years ago I could have offered a hand. Now I am "occupied". :'(