Morning chaps!
I recently 'inherited' about an army's worth of 1866 Saxons (long story involving a lost finger and subsiquent inability to paint on my friends part).
Does anyone have a decent source for their uniforms colour scheme? I know they are different to 1870 Saxons (also on the shopping list).
I realise they were pro-Austrian, and the uniform had changed by 1870 as they came into line with the Confederation (which is what my 1870 sources allude to anyway).
Is their an Osprey for 1866 or any other useful technicolour guides?
Mad Lemmey
ps While I'm at it: Anyone know how to win Funky Kong on Mario KArt Wii?
I've found this a very useful source for my mid-19th century Germans of various kinds. ;)
http://www.grosser-generalstab.de/sturm/sturm30.html
Graham
Wowe, good site.
Thank you!
Sunjester is right, it is great for the regiments it does, and is widely used in other books (such as the one below) to provide appropriate illustrations. But for a more complete work I'd thoroughly recommend "The Armies of 1866: A Guide to the Uniforms, Weapons and Organisation of the Armies of the Seven Weeks War", by N.J Smith. soft back A 4 size at 9.95 pounds sterling and available from Helion books. Covers all the states involved in the war in greater or lesser detail, including Italy, and has their OOBs as well as the detail you are looking for. it was my one stop intro to this period. The only note of caution, look elsewhere for the information on flags. The book contains material which is conjectural and inaccurate, even on things like Prussian flags. For the Saxons, the infantry was organised in 2 divisions, each of two brigades. Each brigade contained four battalions of line infantry (each of which had the same colour facings and cap bands. The brigades had red, yellow, white and black distinctions), and one battalion of jagers. The sixteen line battalions had one flag each, all green, with an elaborate border, and the Saxon arms on one side and a white shield with the royal monogram on the other. These then re-appeared as the 2nd and 3rd battalion flags used by the eight regiments of 1870-71. Hope that helps to start with.
Regards
Mollinary
Oops,
Just had a thought - I am not sure whether the OOBs are in the companion volume on the campaigns - it would certainly make more sense. That said, there is still more than enough info int eh uniforms books to make it worthwhile!
Mollinary
Mollinary,
Thank you very much indeed, I will get that as soon as the next pay cheque arrives!
Mad Lemmey
I would second Mollinary on that one. The Freikorps books on the 1866 war are very useful and helped me to determine how my 1866 Saxons would be painted. Luckily you can get away with the same Saxon cavalry as 1870. For a beautiful colour illustration of a Saxon infantryman in 1866 have a look at John Mollo's Armies of the World (I think that's the title). It was published by Blandford Press back in the 60s and was an absolute must for me when I started wargaming. It was the illustrations from that book which got me hooked on the Wars of German Unification - imagine my frustration: no one made any figures, Airfix conversions was the only way to go. The book still crops up at most conventions; indeed my original copy was 'borrowed' and I was able to replace it thanks to Dave Lanchester.
DP
Quote from: mad lemmey on 10 April 2011, 07:26:43 AM
ps While I'm at it: Anyone know how to win Funky Kong on Mario KArt Wii?
You need to beat the Nintendo Staff 'expert' ghosts in Time Trial mode.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 10 April 2011, 07:26:43 AM
ps While I'm at it: Anyone know how to win Funky Kong on Mario KArt Wii?
Quote from: Leon on 10 April 2011, 10:51:42 PM
You need to beat the Nintendo Staff 'expert' ghosts in Time Trial mode.
And I was going to say, "Ask my four-year-old" :) 8) :o 8)
Quote from: nikharwood on 10 April 2011, 10:59:34 PM
And I was going to say, "Ask my four-year-old" :) 8) :o 8)
My eldest loves it, he's always making me play it. I've only managed to unlock a couple of the extra characters for him though, much to his annoyance... :(
I just consistently come 12th whille he romps in [inevitably] at 1st...he's now discovered the online functionality & seems to be busy embarrassing the European hardcore Mario Kart fraternity....
I'm so proud :o
Quote from: nikharwood on 10 April 2011, 11:10:50 PM
I just consistently come 12th whille he romps in [inevitably] at 1st...he's now discovered the online functionality & seems to be busy embarrassing the European hardcore Mario Kart fraternity....
I'm so proud :o
:D :-bd
Quote from: mollinary on 10 April 2011, 08:31:05 AM
Oops,
Just had a thought - I am not sure whether the OOBs are in the companion volume on the campaigns - it would certainly make more sense. That said, there is still more than enough info int eh uniforms books to make it worthwhile!
Mollinary
They are - entitled
A Guide to the Seven Weeks' War also by Nigel J Smith. You can order both from Hellion - but expect to wait two or three weeks for delivery as I think they print them to order. :-SS
OOB's also in the official Prussian Staff History of the 1866 campaign. This is worth buying if you are also interested in the German theatre of the campaign, as opposed to just the Bohemian theatre.
Chad
QuoteOOB's also in the official Prussian Staff History of the 1866 campaign. This is worth buying if you are also interested in the German theatre of the campaign, as opposed to just the Bohemian theatre.
Do you mean this book:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=g0AIAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:UOM39015014655776#v=onepage&q&f=false
or this, about operations in the west:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=Xz8AAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=related:UOM39015014655776#v=onepage&q&f=false
That looks 'a right rivetin read' - pity my German only stretches to Kann ich ein bier haben!
I have a softback volume from Caliver books in English.
Chad
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 12 April 2011, 11:57:12 AM
That looks 'a right rivetin read' - pity my German only stretches to Kann ich ein bier haben!
OOBs should be understandable ...
Is that softback still available Chad?
It's still on the website. £14.50 I think. Good value.
Chad
By the way if you are really stuck for OOBs, give a nod on my personal e-mail and i will scan and send them to you.
Chad
The best (most detailed) 1866 Austro/Saxon OOB I've seen was published in Strategy and Tactics in 1994 to accompany their Austro-Prussian board wargame.
Quote from: cameronian on 15 April 2011, 01:40:30 PM
The best (most detailed) 1866 Austro/Saxon OOB I've seen was published in Strategy and Tactics in 1994 to accompany their Austro-Prussian board wargame.
Was it more detailed than Nafziger's, available online ?
I wondered what the definition of 'most detailed' was.
I would have thought the information in the Official History would be as detailed as any.
Chad
In case of OOBs "most detailed" means that strength of every regiment is given.
maciek
The Nafziger OOB is from the Official History I mentioned. I cannot remember if the book has any detailed figures. If it does they are probably only of smaller actions. I know casualty figures are noted for some of the actions.
Chad
There are 2 Saxon OOBs in Nafziger. The second (later date) is detailed as to number of men.
Chad
Hi guys,
do you know this book:
http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/more.php?ProdID=10162
is this a translation of Grosser Generastab's book, available online (but in German, which I barely understand) ?
http://books.google.pl/books?id=g0AIAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=der+feldzug+von+1866&hl=pl&ei=gD2pTZ3lOcGEOtGHucYJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I'm asking, because yesterday I received my copy of Hellion's "Road to Koniggratz" and I'm so dissapointed, that I immediatelly started to look for another book about campaign of 1866.
Maciek
This is the book I mentioned earlier.
I found it very good and is excellent value for money
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 16 April 2011, 10:04:57 PM
Maciek
This is the book I mentioned earlier.
I found it very good and is excellent value for money
Chad
That is the official
Prussian history and although excellent, is not definitive when it comes to Austrian units. The OOB in Strategy and Tactics if from the official Austrian history,
Österreichs Kämpfe im Jahre 1866. The compiler was Mike Bennighof, an acknowledged scholar of the period. He includes short regimental details next to many of the units, how they performed in the frontier battles etc.
This table is useful, the first numeral is the regimental number, then the battalions, 1, 2 & 3, then the town/province where it was garrisoned in 1866, then the 4th battalion, its location (usually the regimental depot) then the recruiting district. The two units in bold were the best regiments in the KUK army of 1866 IMHO.
The data is reproduced from the Austrian Official History of the War - Österreichs Kämpfe im Jahre 1866, volume1.
Regt Battalion Garrison Batt Garrison Recruiting District
Headquarters Province
1 1. 2. 3 Vicenza, Bassano 4. Troppau Troppau Moravia & Silesia
2 1. 2. 3. Peterwardein 4. Fogaras Fogaras Siebenbürgen
3 1. 2. 3. 1.Bat. Budua, Castel Lastua, 2.Bat Cattaro, 3. Bat Kremsier 4. 4.Bat Cattaro & Cone. Depot Kremsier Kremsier Moravia
4 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Korneuburg Vienna, Korneuburg Lower Austria
5 1. 2. 3. Treviso, Noale, Mestre, Fort Haynau 4. Némethy-Szathmár Szathmár Hungary
6 1. 2. 3. Brünn 4. Neusatz Neusatz Banat
7 1. 2. 3. Conegliano, Oderzo, Portogruaro 4. Klagenfurt Klagenfurt Carinthia
8 1. 2. 3. Laibach, Rudolfswert 4. Brünn Brünn Moravia
9 1. 2. 3. Comorn 4. Strý Strý East Galicia
10 1. 2. 3. Hermannstadt, Carlsburg, Kronstadt 4. Przemysl Przemysl East Galicia
11 1. 2. 3. Trient, Riva, Tione, Storo 4. Pisek Pisek Bohemia
12 1. 2. 3. Olmütz 4. Comorn Comorn Hungary
13 1. 2. 3. Linz, Salzburg 4. Padua, 11. Division Palmanuova Padua Venetia
14 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Linz Linz Upper Austria
15 1. 2. 3. Debreczin, Némethy-Szathmár 4. Tarnopol Tarnopol East Galicia
16 1. 2. 3. 1. & 2. Bat. Mainz, 3. Bat. Treviso 4. Treviso, Division Palmanuova Treviso Venetia
17 1. 2. 3. Ragusa, Gravosa, Castelnuova 4. Laibach Laibach Carniola
18 1. 2. 3. Ofen 4. Königgrätz Königgrätz Bohemia
19 1. 2. 3. Verona, Legnago 4. Raab Raab Hungary
20 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Neu-Sandec Neu-Sandec West Galicia
21 1. 2. 3. 1.,2. Bat. Zara, 3. Bat. Rastatt, 8. Div. Mainz 4. Czaslau Czaslau Bohemia
22 1. 2. 3. Fiume, Zengg, Carlstadt 4. Triest Triest Dalmatia
23 1. 2. 3. Temesvár 4. Zombor Zombor Banat
24 1. 2. 3. Maros-Vásárhely, Bistriz, Udvarhely 4. Kolomea Kolomea East Galicia
25 1. 2. 3. Ceneda, Belluno, Serravalle 4. Losoncz Losoncz Hungary
26 1. 2. 3. Josephstadt 4. Udine, 11. Division Klagenfurt Udine Venetia
27 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Graz Graz Styria
28 1. 2. 3. Peschiera 4. Prague Prague Bohemia
29 1. 2. 3. Mantua 4. Gross-Kikinda Gross-Kikinda Banat
30 1. 2. 3. Prague 4. Lemberg Lemberg East Galicia
31 1. 2. 3. Padua, Este 4. Orláth Orláth Siebenbürgen
32 1. 2. 3. Triest 4. Ofen Ofen Hungary
33 1. 2. 3. Prague 4. Alt-Arad Arad Hungary
34 1. 2. 3. Prague 4. Kaschau Kaschau Hungary
35 1. 2. 3. 1.&2. Bat. Altona, Glückstadt, 3. Bat. Rastatt 4. Pilsen Pilsen Bohemia
36 1. 2. 3. Venice 4. Jungbunzlau Jungbunzlau Bohemia
37 1. 2. 3. Lemberg 4. Grosswardein Grosswardein Hungary
38 1. 2. 3. Theresienstadt 4. Monselice, 11. Division Görz Monselice Venetia
39 1. 2. 3. Badia, Lendinara, Trecenta, Ficcarolo, Maddalena 4. Debreczin Debreczin Hungary
40 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Rzeszow Rzeszow West Galicia
41 1. 2. 3. Kaschau, Eperjes 4. Czernowitz Czernowitz Bukovina
42 1. 2. 3. Cracow 4. Theresienstadt Theresienstadt Bohemia
43 1. 2. 3. Venice 4. Werschetz Werschetz Banat
44 1. 2. 3. Laibach, Venice, Chiggia 4. Kaposvár Kaposvár Hungary
45 1. 2. 3. Pilsen, Budweis, Krumau 4. Verona Verona Venetia
46 1. 2. 3. Palmanuova, Görz, Gradisca 4. Szegedin Szegedin Hungary
47 1. 2. 3. Graz, 3. Bat. Sebenico, Dernis, Knin 4. Marburg Marburg Styria
48 1. 2. 3. Verona, Revere, Sermide, Ostiglia 4. Nagy-Kanizsa Nagy-Kanizsa Hungary
49 1. 2. 3. 1.&2. Bat. Klagenfurt, Villach, Vöklermarkt, 3. Bat. Rastatt 4. St. Pölten St. Pölten Lower Austria
50 1. 2. 3. Rovigo, Crespino, Adria 4. Carlsburg Carlsburg Siebenbürgen
51 1. 2. 3. Lemberg 4. Klausenburg Klausenburg Siebenbürgen
52 1. 2. 3. Triest, Parenzo, Capo d'Istria, Pirano 4. Fünfkirchen Fünfkirchen Hungary
53 1. 2. 3. Verona 4. Agram Agram Croatia
54 1. 2. 3. Verona, Pastrengo, Ceraino 4. Olmütz Olmütz Moravia
55 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Brzezan Brzezan East Galicia
56 1. 2. 3. Leutschau, Késmark, Igló, Rosenau 4. Wadowice Wadowice West Galicia
57 1. 2. 3. Klausenburg, Carlsburg 4. Tarnow Tarnow West Galicia
58 1. 2. 3. 1.&2. Bat. Agram, 3. Bat. Brody 4. Stanislau Stanislau East Galicia
59 1. 2. 3. Brixen, Bozen, Franzensfeste 4. Salzburg Salzburg Upper Austria,Salzb.
60 1. 2. 3. Olmütz 4. Erlau Erlau Hungary
61 1. 2. 3. Brünn, Karthaus 4. Temesvár Temesvár Banat
62 1. 2. 3. Udine 4. Maros-Vásárhely Maros-Vásárhely Siebenbürgen
63 1. 2. 3. Mantua, Borgoforte 4. Bistritz Bistritz Siebenbürgen
64 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Déva Déva Siebenbürgen
65 1. 2. 3. Mantua 4. Munkács Munkács Hungary
66 1. 2. 3. Verona 4. Unghvár Unghvár Hungary
67 1. 2. 3. 1.&2. Bat. Strý, Stanislau, 3. Bat. Lemberg 4. Eperjes Eperjes Hungary
68 1. 2. 3. Czernowitz, Suczawa, Tarnopol 4. Szolnok Szolnok Hungary
69 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Stuhlweissenburg Stuhlweissenburg Hungary
70 1. 2. 3. Vicenza, Schio, Thiene 4. Neusohl Neusohl Hungary
71 1. 2. 3. Treviso, Feltre, Castelfranco 4. Trentschin Trentschin Hungary
72 1. 2. 3. Radkersburg, Neumünster, 3. Bat. Mainz 4. Pressburg Pressburg Hungary
73 1. 2. 3. Cracow 4. Eger Eger Bohemia
74 1. 2. 3. Venice, 3. Bat. Frankfurt am Main 4. Jičin Jičin Bohemia
75 1. 2. 3. Verona, Vallegio, Villafranca 4. Neuhaus Neuhaus Bohemia
76 1. 2. 3. Padua, Padadopoli 4. Ödenburg Ödenburg Hungary
77 1. 2. 3. Arad, Szegedin 4. Sambor Sambor East Galicia
78 1. 2. 3. Pola, Rovigo, Lussin, Piccolo 4. Esseg Esseg Croat. & Slavonia
79 1. 2. 3. Pressburg, Comorn 4. Pordenone Pordenone Venetia
80 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Verona & Vicenza Vicenza Venetia
WOW :o
Thanks for that list cameronian =D>
But sadly not a Saxon among them!
Mollinary
Order of Battle of the Royal Saxon Army Corps 1866
The following order of battle shows the composition of the Royal Saxon Army Corps allied with and attached to the Austrian army of the North during the campaign in Bohemia in June/July 1866. The Saxons under the command of Crown Prince Albert of Saxony fought bravely and skillfully during the battles of Gitschin and Königgrätz and this order of battle reflects the situation as at the 20th of June 1866.
Corps Commander General der Infanterie Kronprinz Albert, Herzog zu Sachsen
Adjutants: Oberst Prinz Schönburg
- Rittmeister Friedrich Clemens Senfft von Pilsach
Orderly Officers Oberleutnant Ernst Otto von Berlepsch
- Oberleutnant Maximilian Heinrich Adam von Wuthenau
- Oberleutnant Hans von Schütz
Chief of Staff Generalmajor Georg Friedrich Alfred von Fabrice
Adjutant Hauptmann Ernst Bernhard Graf Vitzthum
Deputy Chief of Staff Major Bernhard Funke
Staff Officer Hauptmann Schubert
- Oberleutnant Hans Florian von Nostitz-Drzewiecki
- Guiden-Leutnant Brückner
Director of Artillery Generalmajor Ludwig Schmalz
Adjutants: Hauptmann Otto Schweingel
- Oberleutnant Friedrich Keyßelitz
Director of Engineers Oberst Friedrich Otto Peters
Intendant Oberst Eduin Freiherr von Friesen
Medical Director General-Stabsarzt Dr. August Günther
Judge Advocate Oberkriegsgerichtsrath Eugen Dietrich
Staff Judge Advocates: Stabsauditeur Victor Baumgarten-Crusius
Auditeur Meinhold
Field Provisions Officer Proviant-Verwalter Carl Fellmer
Field Telegraph Detachment: Telegraphen-Director Pörsch
- Assistent von Vitzthum
Field Gendarmerie: Rittmeister von Stammer
- Oberleutnant von Römer
Chaplains: Feldprobst: Ober-Katechet Dr. Fricke
- Vikar Hering
- Vikar Hermann
Train Oberstleutnant Edmund Schmalz
Attached K.k. Oberst Joseph Pelikan von Plauenfeld
-- K.k. Kriegs-Commissär Wilhelm Schlosser
- -
1.Infanterie-Division
Generallieutenant Bernhard von Schimpf
Chief of Staff Major Friedrich von Zeschwitz
Adjutant Hauptmann Eduard Reyher
2.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Hermann von Hake
2.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant August Tauscher
5.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Moritz von Rohrscheidt
6.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Carl von Metzradt
7.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Ferdinand Otto von Gablenz
8.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Kurt Alexander von Elterlein
3.Infanterie-Brigade Generalmajor Georg Job von Carlowitz
3.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Hugo Philipp Arthur von der Mosel
9.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Bernhard von Leonhardi
10.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Heinrich von Abendroth
11.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Johann von Wolffersdorff
12.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Ernst Adolph von Craushaar
Divisional Cavalry Major Ernst von Standfest
4.Escadron 2.Reiter-Regiment Rittmeister Alexander Schubuth
4.Escadron 3.Reiter-Regiment Rittmeister Rudolph von Minckwitz
Divisional Artillery Oberstlieutenant Carl Weigl
Gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Walther Hauptmann Georg Adolph Walther
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie von der Pfordte Hauptmann Curt Adolph von der Pfordte
- -
2.Infanterie-Division
Generallieutenant Thuisko von Stieglitz
Chief of Staff Oberstlieutenant Alban von Montbé
Leib.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Clemens Freiherr von Hausen
4.Jäger-Bataillon Major Julius Carl Adolph von Schulz
13.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Maximilian August von Schmieden
14.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Rudolph von Bünau
15.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Friedrich Otto Hamann
16.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstleutnant von Friesen
1.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Emil von Boxberg
1.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Gustav Nehrhoff von Holderberg
1.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Johannes Freiherr von Wagner
2.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Friedrich von Sandersleben
3.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Julius Roßky
4.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Carl Heinrich Freiherr von Kochtitzky
Reiter-Division
Generallieutenant Bernhard Albert Freiherr von Fritsch
Chief of Staff Hauptmann Adolph Leopold von Tscheresky und Bögendorf
1.Reiter-Brigade Generalmajor Prinz Georg von Sachsen
Garde-Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Franz Graf und Edler Herr zur Lippe-Biesterfeld-Weißenfeld
1.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Friedrich von Beulwitz
2.Reiter-Brigade Generalmajor Moritz Freiherr von Biedermann
2.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Hugo Senfft von Pilsach
3.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Otto von Ludwiger
-
Artillerie-Reserve Oberst Bruno Köhler
1.Artillerie-Brigade Major Johann von Watzdorf
gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Leonhardi Hauptmann Edmund Constanz Leonardi
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie Legnik Hauptmann Carl Emil Legnik
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie Westmann Hauptmann Friedrich Heinrich Alexander Westmann
2.Artillerie-Brigade Major Adolf Albrecht
gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Heidenreich Hauptmann Bernhard August Heinrich Heidenreich
12pfünd. reitende Batterie Hoch
Hauptmann Carl Julius Bernhard Hoch
Wow! Enough Saxons there for anyone! I can probably find my copy of the Stuart Sutherland translation of the Saxon offical history, which I believe allocates numbers to those formations. I'll have a look tonight.
Mollinary
Quote from: cameronian
The two units in bold were the best regiments in the KUK army of 1866 IMHO.
4 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Korneuburg Vienna, Korneuburg Lower Austria
"Hoch und Deutschmeister" 8) Teutonic Knights ...
KUK IR 4, The Children of Vienna, hard as nails, took a lot of killing.
KUK IR 47, Palace Guard Gratz, reputation for ferocity in close quarter fighting.
Mollinary, give me a day or so and I'll dig up the numbers, bit busy tonight.
The information in 'The Campaign of 1866' provides sufficient information for wargame purposes, even if it is 'Prussian'. Another useful work is 'The Organisation of the German State Forces in 1866' by Stuart Sutherland. This work includes the Saxon army and also lists the regimental strengths in May and June 1866.
Chad
Cameronian,
Thanks for the offer, but I was offering too, not asking! I did not find my Sutherland Saxon History, but got the following from Smith's Campaigns of 1866.
Ist Inf Division 2nd Brigade: 2 jagers 907, 5Btn 947, 6Btn 921, 7Btn 936, 8Btn 921
3rd Brigade: 3 jagers 910, 9Btn 935, 10Btn 949, 11Btn 879, 12 Btn 953
Div Arty 1x6pdr rifled battery, 1x12pdr shell battery.
Div cavalry 4th sqdns of 2nd and 3rd Reiters Total 326
2nd Inf Division 4th Brigade: 4 jagers 942, 13Btn 919, 14Btn 941, 15Btn 913, 16Btn 967
1st Brigade: 1 jagers 884, 1Btn 957, 2Btn 920, 3Btn 931, 4Btn 930
Div Arty 1x6pdr rifled battery, 1x12pdr shell battery
Div Cavalry 4th sqdns Guard and 1st Reiters Total 339
Cavalry Division 1st Cav Bde Guard Reiters 453 in 3 sqdns, 1st Reiters 527 in 3 sqdns
2nd Cav Bde 2nd Reiters 499 in 3 sqns, 4th Reiters 523 in 3 sqdns
Div Arty 1x12pdr Horse Bty
Corps Arty reserve 1st Brigade: 1x6pdr rifled Bty, 2x12pdr shell Bty
2nd Brigade: 1x6pdr rifled bty, 1x12pdr Horse Bty
All Batteries of 6 guns apart from 1x12pdr battery in ist Brigade Corps reserve Arty, which had 4.
Hope this helps someone.
Mollinary
Mollinary
That seems to match Sutherland's information. If the figures quoted are the June strengths, then it might be worth noting that Sutherland quotes them as only 'rank and file', indicating that they would be slightly higher when officers are added.
Chad
I strongly recommend Nafziger's collection
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.htm
Simply search for "1866" or "1870", or any battle name.
Its good to see so many others enjoying this period. Do you think Leon might give us a playroom of our own (The Hyphenated Wars perhaps) covering SH, AP and FPWs? Of course some mightn't want their own forum here, there's 1870 and BloodandIron over at Yahoo but since we're all gaming with Pendraken figures it sounds sensible to me.
Also, since we're all enthused by the period (a minority period), and we're all into 10mm (a minority scale) perhaps we should be a bit less spikey with each other (here I hold my hand up as a guilty party) or am I being abnormally sensitive?
Re books on the period I finally managed to track down an ex-library copy of Richard Holmes 'The Road to Sedan'. £90 but that's a lot cheaper than any of the other (good/excellent non-library stock) ones I've seen recently. Also has anyone read Mike Embree's new book on Radetzky yet, I'm still waiting for my copy from Helion. Finally re Stuart Sutherland, does anyone have inside info on the progress of 'The Austrian Army of 1866'. I corresponded with Duncan Rogers a while ago and although Stuart has apparently dropped out of the project, they're still planning to publish this year but they've been planning to publish 'this year' since 2005.
Cameronian
Check Helion's website. I think the Austrian book is on there.
Sutherland gives slightly different strengths than those from Molinary, but not enough to make any difference to a game. He does, however, quote the battery crew strengths as follows:
1st shell battery - 160 2nd shell battery - 156 3rd shell battery - 162 4th shell battery - 111
1st rifled battery - 154 2nd rifled battery - 160 3rd rifled battery - 159 4th rifled battery - 162
1st horse battery - 181 2nd horse battery - 175
I am building forces for the other German States, Bavaria, Baden, etc. Whilst not all figures are available, in 10mm it ispossible to use other figures. For example, Prussian Jager are close enough for Nassau Line.
Cheers
Chad
Very active subject it seems. What rules are yall using to game this period? I was looking at Bruce Weigle's 1866 - any comments on those rules :-\
Blaker
My wargame friend and I were part of the testing group on '1866'. I f you want to play at the grand tactical level then they are very good and the amount of information on the period they contain is excellent value for money. They include the Danish War of 1864 and adjustments for smaller scale games. For smaller actions, however, and am using 'Black Powder' and have just started with 'Die Fighting'. I couldn't get used to Bruce's idea of just chnaging the unit size for small actions without modifying the ground scale, etc. (but that's just me).
I briefly tried Polemos Franco-Prussian Rules with a view to using their 1866 and 1859 suipplements, but found the artillery totally ineffective (unless I was doing something wrong!).
'Chassepot & Needlegun' are not bad but very bloody.
Hope this helps
Chad
Hope this helps.
Thanks Chad that helps ;)
Speaking of rules - any suggestions to game the Italian Revolt of 1848-49 and the Hungarian Revolt of 1848-49? Hmmm and of course, suitable minis for the armies involved.? If this needs to be another topic thread, please, move it I dont want to disrupt this lively discussion on 1866 which I find very interesting and very very helpful.
Cameronian - I'm all for the non-spikey approach. On the whole I think this is a very civilised forum compared to some I could mention, and everyone seems to go out of their way to help - but if I have inadvertently "spiked" anyone, I too heartily apologise.
Blaker - being a megalomaniac when it comes to little metal men I like rules that allow me to have huge battles in a reasonable time frame. After a fair bit of experimentation this has led me to the Real Time Wargame rules sold by Keith Warren of Realistic Modelling. They have two similar sets for 1866 and 1870, both (now, since SALUTE!) contain campaign rules and a system for fighting only part of a big battle if that is all the figures you can muster, and both give a flavour of the period that I find irresistable. And they are simple enough for even me to understand, which is a pretty powerful combination! I have all Bruce Weigle's fantastic sets 1869, 1866 and 1870, and consult them all the time on OOBs, scenarios,, etc, but I still come back to the Real Time rules.
Mollinary
Cool Thanks Molinary I will look those rules up. I am basically looking for rules that will allow me to game on a table no larger than a 4ft x 6ft and easily understandable for kids ranging in age from 10 to 16.. I teach wargaming classes during the summer months and have been wanting to introduce the lesser know conflicts prior to WW2. Hopefully opening the eyes of the younger generation. Ive been doing this for 15 years and been using Pendraken minis for at least the past 10 years.
Some classes the kids paint up armies and them play with them and then they take them home. Some classes, I paint up all the armies (this is starting to hurt as I get older) and the kids learn to play the battles. :o
During the early years of these classes, I was painting up to about 160 armies a year so the kids took home painted armies, then I wised up and started having the kids paint their own armies and then they got to take them home :D
I have found that everyone on this forum to be very helpful and very informed about all the periods that are discussed. This has to be one of the "Best" Forums on the web as to the quality of members - Thank you Dave, Leon and the rest of the Pendraken crew for having this forum :-bd
Blaker,
These rules might suit you very well. They are essentially designed for a corps on corps action, and work on a 7' by 5' table, but I am sure they could work on 6' by 4' . 10" equals a kilometer in ground scale, so your table would be about 7kms by 5kms. Don't be put off by the square measurement and movement rather than using a ruler. It has a bit of a boardgame feel, but you soon get used to it, and it gets rid of a lot of fiddling/arguing over whether troops are just in range, or if all the battalion is in a wood. The stacking limit (yes, also a bit like a boardgame) of 8 units in a 1km square alsio requires you to think carefully about deployment, and sequencing of the movement of reserves. This is something I really like, as it is what I feel a general should be doing. Also the rules have only two basic formations for infantry - a manouevre formation and a combat formation. In manouevre formation you have more flexibility in terms of distance to move and ease of change of direction, but cannot fight. Once you change to combat formation, you cannot change back to manouevre during the game. This means you have to think very carefully about when to make the change, with what proportion of your force, how far from the enemy, facing which direction. Mistakes made at this stage are very difficult to correct, unlike most wargames. As you can tell I am sold on these, and hope others who try them out like them as much as I do.
Happy gaming,
Mollinary
I'm sold on Field of Battle (1866 variant).
I too am converting my FPW and APW to Real Time Wargames rules. I am also looking forward to the publication of Paris, City of Light, which is the FPW Republican phase of the war. These rules could well take off in the Liverpool club.
DP
I have Field of Battle on my list to try.
Chad
Chad, I've done two sets of cards for FOB 1866 and am well on with my rules revision; if you can wait until July I'll send you a set (pdf). The cards can be downloaded from the Piquet-FOB-Files section over at Yahoo Piquet (I'll be putting a French/Prussian set up before Christmas). In fairness to Brent Oman you should really buy a set of FOB, mine are a bit 'bare bones', Brent's are much more explicatory.
Cam
I do have FOB and have been working my way through other rules. They are next.
I have done Black Powder data sheets, which worked ok. Currently trying 'Die Fighting' for an 1870 game and will then try an 1866 game. July is a bit of a wait, but any help is appreciated.
Chad
OK, give me a couple of months, I'm almost there but busy with work at present. You might want to print and cut the cards, they were designed to be printed on special pre-punched sheets but I'm sure good quality card and a guillotine will suffice. BTW I never use measures, calipers for movement and range sticks for shooting.
Cam
Have joined the Piquet Group. Saw your pics. Most impressive. Are they based as per the standard FOB basing?
Cheers
Chad
Quote from: cameronian on 20 April 2011, 10:07:06 AM
Also, since we're all enthused by the period (a minority period), and we're all into 10mm (a minority scale) perhaps we should be a bit less spikey with each other (here I hold my hand up as a guilty party) or am I being abnormally sensitive?
I too must plead guilty to oversensitivity. Put it down to temporary loss of sense of humour, for which I apologise. :-[
Nice figures, by the way.
Nice figures, by the way
Too kind. The Saxon Artillery looked like leprauchans until I splashed a bit of army painter over them!
Quote from: Chad on 22 April 2011, 08:58:34 AM
Cam
Have joined the Piquet Group. Saw your pics. Most impressive. Are they based as per the standard FOB basing?
Cheers
Chad
Thanks for the kind comment. No. My figure scale is 1 figure = 70 men, 1cm = 25m, 1 stand = a half battalion or one battery or one squadron (jaegers s different, 1 stand = 2 companies). Movement and ranges will be based on this.
Cam
What are the base sizes?
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 23 April 2011, 01:57:24 PM
Cam
What are the base sizes?
Chad
1cm = 25m
Prussian line, Saxon line, half battalion stand 4cms x 1.5cms, French line half battalion stand (smaller battalions tho still in a linear formation), 3cms x 1.5cms, Austrian line half battalion stand 3cms x 2cms reflecting depth. Two Prussian, Saxon, French stands one behind the other represent coy column; end to end represents line. Standard regimental formation for the above is three battalions, two up front in line and available to fire, one in reserve.
Austrians, two stands side by side shock column (180 files wide, 6 ranks deep, approximates to 150m wide by 50m deep) two Austrian stands one behind the other is a battalion column (can attck but mainly for manouvre).
Prussian, Saxon, French Artillery (six gun batteries) 1.5cms x 2cms, Austrian artillery (eight gun batteries) 2cms x 3cms. Limbers are essentially 'dressing' and are removed when the gun unlimbers, the stand size represents the guns, limbers etc frontage and depth.
All jaegers are in 'strong' companies, 4 stands to a battalion, 2cms x 1.5cms. Austrian jaegers may be formed into shock columns.
All cavalry are in 'strong' squadrons, 4 stands to a regiment 2cms x 3cms, two formations column for movement and line for assault.
YES!
2 good pieces of news to do with this thread:
Firstly, my 1866 books from Helion are on the way, now I've got them to get my address right. :-[
Secondly, I finally won Funky Kong tonight (thanks Leon!) My daugher is soooo jealous right now ;D
Funky Kong!!!
Funky Kong! On Mario Kart Wii (it was an aside half way through this thread)
I know.
;)
He's coooool! And my daugther is still very jealous!
Okay - thread necromancy here chaps!
The sources I have describe Saxon's in 'sky blue' - which is about a pale a blue as I've ever seen, however the picture links on page one of the site are much darker.
Any suggestions for a suitable paint colour for 1866 Saxons?
Mad Lemmey
I think some sort of cornflower blue would be appropriate. That is the description attached to a cavalry tunic on display in the Dresden army museum when I visited a few years ago. It was dark enough for Austrians at Konigratz to mistake approaching Prussians (I assume in feldmutzen?) for Saxons, so I think sky blue doesn't exactly cover it. I think I went for a Vallejo mid blue. But looking at the colours currently on my bench I think Foundry's Bavarian Cornflower blue, 73 b, would provide a good base, highlighted to personal taste.
Mollinary
Thanks Mollinary, appreciate it.
Truth to tell there probably wasn't one set shade, QA in 1866 wouldn't have been that good and the pre-anilene dyes were notorious for fading. Knotel has the Saxons in pale blue but I've seen contemporary illustrations much darker (? Ottenfeld).
The Bavarians ordered new uniforms for the victory parade through Munich in 1871 but were horrified to discover on unpacking that they were a fetching shade of lilac/purple; red faces all round.
Right, they're started. :)
Now the next annoying question:
What colour are Saxon artillery pieces?
Grey. Remember Saxon gunners wore green tunics not pale blue and no, I don't know the exact shade ;)
Thanks sir!
I just found this too!
http://1815-1918.blogspot.com/2010/05/saxon-infantry-and-artillery-1866.html (http://1815-1918.blogspot.com/2010/05/saxon-infantry-and-artillery-1866.html) ;D
Mad Lemmey,
Thanks for the link, not seen that before - but the blue is about what I was suggesting in terms of dark/light. Cameronian has a good point on the gunners - the Saxons are not the only ones to have a completely different uniform colour for their artillery men - the Austrians have a shade of brown for their tunics, and the Bavarians go for an all dark blue uniform (this latter catches lots of people out, including me before I became a complete hyphenated wars nerd!).
Cheers,
Mollinary
I used Cornflower Blue for my Saxons, Lemmy. I always rationalise these things by pointing out that after a few weeks in the field all uniform colours fade.
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/1866%20-%20So%20far/SaxonInfantry3.jpg (http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/1866%20-%20So%20far/SaxonInfantry3.jpg)
That's the effect I'm going for with mine. Base coated Azure, then highlight lighter to Cornflower/Cerulean Blue
Now here's the real question is now basing...
A Prussian Regt is (theoretically) made up of three battalions of 1032, equalling 3096 men per regiment. My 3" bases are 1 regiment with 30 figures, equating to approx 103.3 men per figure. Thus 4 per division and per commander. My Wurttenbergers and French are on the same approximate scale or regimental bases.
The Saxons in 1866 have individual Battalions of c950 men. There are battalions 4 per Brigade, 8 battalions per Division. Here are the options:
a) 4 small units of 9.5 figures = 950 men. (Tiny in Black Powder)
b) 2 medium sized units of two Battalions of 19 figures = 1900 men. (Small in Black Powder)
c) 1 large unit of 38 men = 3800 men (Large in Black Powder. Would have to order more figures, shame)!
The structure is a nightmare! Roll on 1870!
Mad Lemmey
*editted when I realised I missed the 3 out of my figure to men ratio*
Lemmy, always bear in mind that these are paper strengths. Very few units actually acheived these figures, even at the start of a campaign. After a week or two and a couple pf actions strengths drop significantly. My Saxon battalions are pitched at about 800 men each. Austrians at about 1,000. Otherwise you can drive yourself crazy. ~X(
Yeah of course that's why they are theoretical strengths- :)
"Come on Men, you've got a 20 mile hike in full kit today!"
"Or we could stop off at the bar and knocking shop in the local village, and I'll catch you up on the way back..." ;D
Mollinary - you said in another thread...
"If you haven't finished the 1866 Saxons yet, I thoroughly recommend the flags produced by Baccus 6mm. I have used them for my 1870 Saxons, and they work very well for 10mm. One sheet covers the whole army! I don't know of anyone else who makes accurate Saxon flags for this period at present."
Thank you sir, I've got the Saxon's with cast on flags, I'm guessing I'm hand painting those, any good sources apart from Bacchus, how close in size are they to 10mm flags?
ML
There's a reasonable line drawing in The Armies of 1866 from the Pickelhaube Press of the obverse of the flag, but the reverse is only noted as being a gold shield bearing the royal monogram and surrounded by a laurel wreath.
I too have the standard-bearer figures with the cast-on flags. They are pretty fiddly to paint. :(
I have the 'pole only' standard bearers for the battalions but recently bought some cast flag men for the casualty bases; I'm going to try and soften the paper flags with dilute PVA and then glue then onto the cast flag with Modellers Glue (PVA base but with some secret additive which makes it bind to ANYTHING). I'll let you know how it's going. Must say I'd prefer if Pendraken didn't have cast flags at all.
Quote from: cameronian on 20 March 2012, 10:35:22 AM
Must say I'd prefer if Pendraken didn't have cast flags at all.
No cast flags on any future figures, and we'll try and add pole-only options to other ranges where requested.
8)
Now THAT'S what I call service!
Lemmey,
There is a great resource, and it was buying material from this particular site which got me all you could ever want to know about Saxon flags (and Prussian ones too). Luckily, I think you can get what you want simply from looking on line. The site is German, if you follow these instructions you should get what you want. The site is www.historischer-bilderdienst.de. Click on the link marked Fahnen, Flaggen und Standarten. Then you want to click on SF03 Hottenroth. Sachsische Fahnen und Standarten. Once in there, go to the bottom and click on
Leuchttisch. A table of illustrations of Saxon flags should appear. The last flag on Row 3 and the 5 flags on Row 4 , all with a green field, are the design you are looking for for 1866. Incredibly, if you then click on the flag itself, you get a good enlargement. I hope this should give you a good idea for painting a 10 mm scale flag. If you want to know the brigade differences, they are simple. In the four corners of the green field, on both sides, is either a Roman numeral I, II, or III in yellow, or a crown. I'll leave you to work out which brigade is which! If you need any more details, drop me an e-mail and I'll see what I can do.
Mollinary
PS. Forgot, the Baccus flags are just a tad under 9 mm square, with an extra little bit in the middle for the pole.
Mollinary
Wow! I'll have a proper look when I've marked these 32 maths papers I've got to do tonight!
maybe worth posting that in the resources section, maybe in a flags and banners posts!
Good luck Lemmey, I gave up marking about 26 years ago, and can't say I miss it! It is a great site, and the guy who runs it is really helpful. Most, if not all of the stuff is taken from his late father's extensive collection of original books. Given the difficulty of accessing this material, this site is an absolute gold mine. The compact discs I got with the photocopied text of the original books were very good value for money, if you are a complete flag geek - as I am!
Mollinary
I'v ejust had a look - that is an incredible site! Lawks! Cool! :o :D
Bother; my Saxon flags don't look like this, in fact they don't look like it at all .. damn, didn't we have this conversation years ago, I'm losing it, I really am.
At least we have established who the four people in the world to own 10mm 1866 Saxon armies are! ;D
Cam,
Yes, I'm rather afraid we did! I am the last guardian of the true Wettin colours, and respond to any poor soul, sunk in error, who crosses my path. Good Prinz Albert deserves nothing less, God bless him!
Mollinary
Curses; where might one find the 'One True Saxon Colours' available for cutting and pasting; you realise I'm going to have to change every battalion colour x 4 brigades!
Quote from: mollinary on 20 March 2012, 07:00:25 PM
Lemmey,
There is a great resource, and it was buying material from this particular site which got me all you could ever want to know about Saxon flags (and Prussian ones too). Luckily, I think you can get what you want simply from looking on line. The site is German, if you follow these instructions you should get what you want. The site is www.historischer-bilderdienst.de. Click on the link marked Fahnen, Flaggen und Standarten. Then you want to click on SF03 Hottenroth. Sachsische Fahnen und Standarten. Once in there, go to the bottom and click on
Leuchttisch. A table of illustrations of Saxon flags should appear. The last flag on Row 3 and the 5 flags on Row 4 , all with a green field, are the design you are looking for for 1866. Incredibly, if you then click on the flag itself, you get a good enlargement. I hope this should give you a good idea for painting a 10 mm scale flag. If you want to know the brigade differences, they are simple. In the four corners of the green field, on both sides, is either a Roman numeral I, II, or III in yellow, or a crown. I'll leave you to work out which brigade is which! If you need any more details, drop me an e-mail and I'll see what I can do.
Mollinary
I bought some Hanoverian disks from these chaps (on your advice in another place!) - first class resources. highly recommended.
Lemmey
I might have been the 5th, but I am opting to do the western theatre. :)
Chad
Cam,
You probably have two choices. 1) Do what I do and use the Baccus flags, which are cheap and pretty accurate. They are also pretty accurate in size for 10mm figures. I have used them for my 1866 and 1870 Saxons, and my Prussians, mans I think they look pretty damn good!
2) Direct the nice guy at Maverick Models to the site and ask if he can produce them for you in whatever size you are looking for. I am told he is very open to suggestions of this sort if you have the details. You could even buy the CD, and send that to him, as the quality of the images on it is first class (it also includes the Leibfahne designs for the 1870 regiments).
Good luck!
Mollinary
My test models for second and third brigade models are nearly done, 3rd Brigade is looking cool with black piping, however, with yellow piping on light blue, 2nd brigade look like TRAFFIC WARDENS!
http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/tward2.jpg (http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/tward2.jpg)
Quote from: cameronian on 20 March 2012, 09:25:26 PM
Bother; my Saxon flags don't look like this, in fact they don't look like it at all .. damn, didn't we have this conversation years ago, I'm losing it, I really am.
Join the club, Cam. Mine are green, thanks to Mollinary, but that's probably the best you can say for them. :'(
Not looking forwards to the next part, painting those standards. Cleared my Friday night painting schedule just to paint 4 flags! Photos late Friday night (I hope)!
Quote from: mollinary on 21 March 2012, 05:37:38 PM
Cam,
You probably have two choices. 1) Do what I do and use the Baccus flags, which are cheap and pretty accurate. They are also pretty accurate in size for 10mm figures. I have used them for my 1866 and 1870 Saxons, and my Prussians, mans I think they look pretty damn good!
2) Direct the nice guy at Maverick Models to the site and ask if he can produce them for you in whatever size you are looking for. I am told he is very open to suggestions of this sort if you have the details. You could even buy the CD, and send that to him, as the quality of the images on it is first class (it also includes the Leibfahne designs for the 1870 regiments).
Good luck!
Mollinary
Good idea; Baccus it is.
Right guys, thanks for all the advice. First batch done (photos tomorrow),
Next batch primed and ready to go...
Next question: Horse artillery from 'The Armies of 1866, A Guide To the Weapons and Organisation of the Armies of the Seven Weeks' War' by Picklehaube Press notes the horse artillery wore 'the Horse Batteries had a black crested helmet with a raupe rather like that worn by the Bavarian Checaulegers.'
Would 1860's Bavarian BA10 Krupp C64 4pdr RBL, horse artillery crew do? Looking at a certain other manufacteurerers site (*QRF/Friekorp 15*) they look pretty close...
Thoughts?
Mad Lemmey
Lemmey,
Yes, that is exactly what I did when I put together my Saxons. As you probably already know, the horse artillery were armed with smooth bore 12 pdrs not rifled guns, so you will need to ask Leon to put in the guns from BA 12. These are not as a lot of folk-lore has it, old heavy Napoleonic guns, but new (late 1850s) short barrelled, light, shell guns. Think the equivalent of the ACW Napoleons. Their real problem was short range, and the Prussians in particular never really got to grips with how to use them without getting blasted by longer range rifled guns. The guns in BA 12 are lovely little models, and a couple of actual examples are still on display in the Bavarian Army museum in Ingolstadt.
Looking forward to the photos!
Mollinary
Thank you sir,
One day I'll buy you a beer in repayment (along with a gallon of coffee for AndyMac)!
Posting Photos now...
How about teams? Will the Bavarians do for them too?
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4963.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4963.0.html)
Here they are.