Saxons - difference between 1866 & 1870

[Chad]

By the way if you are really stuck for OOBs, give a nod on my personal e-mail and i will scan and send them to you.

Chad

[cameronian]

The best (most detailed) 1866 Austro/Saxon OOB I've seen was published in Strategy and Tactics in 1994 to accompany their Austro-Prussian board wargame.

[maciek]

The best (most detailed) 1866 Austro/Saxon OOB I've seen was published in Strategy and Tactics in 1994 to accompany their Austro-Prussian board wargame.

Was it more detailed than Nafziger's, available online ?

[Chad]

I wondered what the definition of 'most detailed' was.

I would have thought the information in the Official History would be as detailed as any.

Chad

[maciek]

In case of OOBs "most detailed" means that strength of every regiment is given.

[Chad]

maciek

The Nafziger OOB is from the Official History I mentioned. I cannot remember if the book has any detailed figures. If it does they are probably only of smaller actions. I know casualty figures are noted for some of the actions.

Chad

[Chad]

There are 2 Saxon OOBs in Nafziger. The second (later date) is detailed as to number of men.

Chad

[maciek]

Hi guys,
do you know this book:
http://www.directart.co.uk/mall/more.php?ProdID=10162

is this a translation of Grosser Generastab's book, available online (but in German, which I barely understand) ?

http://books.google.pl/books?id=g0AIAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=der+feldzug+von+1866&hl=pl&ei=gD2pTZ3lOcGEOtGHucYJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'm asking, because yesterday I received my copy of Hellion's "Road to Koniggratz" and I'm so dissapointed, that I immediatelly started to look for another book about campaign of 1866.

[Chad]

Maciek

This is the book I mentioned earlier.

I found it very good and is excellent value for money

Chad

[cameronian]

Maciek

This is the book I mentioned earlier.

I found it very good and is excellent value for money

Chad

That is the official Prussian history and although excellent, is not definitive when it comes to Austrian units. The OOB in Strategy and Tactics if from the official Austrian history, Österreichs Kämpfe im Jahre 1866. The compiler was Mike Bennighof, an acknowledged scholar of the period. He includes short regimental details next to many of the units, how they performed in the frontier battles etc.

[cameronian]

This table is useful, the first numeral is the regimental number, then the battalions, 1, 2 & 3, then the town/province where it was garrisoned in 1866, then the 4th battalion, its location (usually the regimental depot) then the recruiting district. The two units in bold were the best regiments in the KUK army of 1866 IMHO.
The data is reproduced from the Austrian Official History of the War - Österreichs Kämpfe im Jahre 1866, volume1.



Regt Battalion Garrison Batt Garrison Recruiting District
Headquarters Province
1 1. 2. 3 Vicenza, Bassano 4. Troppau Troppau Moravia & Silesia
2 1. 2. 3. Peterwardein 4. Fogaras Fogaras Siebenbürgen
3 1. 2. 3. 1.Bat. Budua, Castel Lastua, 2.Bat Cattaro, 3. Bat Kremsier 4. 4.Bat Cattaro & Cone. Depot Kremsier Kremsier Moravia
4 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Korneuburg Vienna, Korneuburg Lower Austria
5 1. 2. 3. Treviso, Noale, Mestre, Fort Haynau 4. Némethy-Szathmár Szathmár Hungary
6 1. 2. 3. Brünn 4. Neusatz Neusatz Banat
7 1. 2. 3. Conegliano, Oderzo, Portogruaro 4. Klagenfurt Klagenfurt Carinthia
8 1. 2. 3. Laibach, Rudolfswert 4. Brünn Brünn Moravia
9 1. 2. 3. Comorn 4. Strý Strý East Galicia
10 1. 2. 3. Hermannstadt, Carlsburg, Kronstadt 4. Przemysl Przemysl East Galicia
11 1. 2. 3. Trient, Riva, Tione, Storo 4. Pisek Pisek Bohemia
12 1. 2. 3. Olmütz 4. Comorn Comorn Hungary
13 1. 2. 3. Linz, Salzburg 4. Padua, 11. Division Palmanuova Padua Venetia
14 1. 2. 3. Vienna 4. Linz Linz Upper Austria
15  1.  2.  3. Debreczin, Némethy-Szathmár 4. Tarnopol Tarnopol East Galicia
16  1.  2.  3. 1. & 2. Bat. Mainz, 3. Bat. Treviso 4. Treviso, Division Palmanuova Treviso Venetia
17  1.  2.  3. Ragusa, Gravosa, Castelnuova 4. Laibach Laibach Carniola
18  1.  2.  3. Ofen 4. Königgrätz Königgrätz Bohemia
19  1.  2.  3. Verona, Legnago 4. Raab Raab Hungary
20  1.  2.  3. Pesth 4. Neu-Sandec Neu-Sandec West Galicia
21  1.  2.  3. 1.,2. Bat. Zara, 3. Bat. Rastatt, 8. Div. Mainz 4. Czaslau Czaslau Bohemia
22  1.  2.  3. Fiume, Zengg, Carlstadt 4. Triest Triest Dalmatia
23  1.  2.  3. Temesvár 4. Zombor Zombor Banat
24  1.  2.  3. Maros-Vásárhely, Bistriz, Udvarhely 4. Kolomea Kolomea East Galicia
25  1.  2.  3. Ceneda, Belluno, Serravalle 4. Losoncz Losoncz Hungary
26  1.  2.  3. Josephstadt 4. Udine, 11. Division Klagenfurt Udine Venetia
27  1.  2.  3. Vienna 4. Graz Graz Styria
28  1.  2.  3. Peschiera 4. Prague Prague Bohemia
29  1.  2.  3. Mantua 4. Gross-Kikinda Gross-Kikinda Banat
30  1.  2.  3. Prague 4. Lemberg Lemberg East Galicia
31  1.  2.  3. Padua, Este 4. Orláth Orláth Siebenbürgen
32  1.  2.  3. Triest 4. Ofen Ofen Hungary
33  1.  2.  3. Prague 4. Alt-Arad Arad Hungary
34  1.  2.  3. Prague 4. Kaschau Kaschau Hungary
35  1.  2.  3. 1.&2. Bat. Altona, Glückstadt, 3. Bat. Rastatt 4. Pilsen Pilsen Bohemia
36  1.  2.  3. Venice 4. Jungbunzlau Jungbunzlau Bohemia
37  1.  2.  3. Lemberg 4. Grosswardein Grosswardein Hungary
38  1.  2.  3. Theresienstadt 4. Monselice, 11. Division Görz Monselice Venetia
39  1.  2.  3. Badia, Lendinara, Trecenta, Ficcarolo, Maddalena 4. Debreczin Debreczin Hungary
40  1.  2.  3. Vienna 4. Rzeszow Rzeszow West Galicia
41  1.  2.  3. Kaschau, Eperjes 4. Czernowitz Czernowitz Bukovina
42  1.  2.  3. Cracow 4. Theresienstadt Theresienstadt Bohemia
43  1.  2.  3. Venice 4. Werschetz Werschetz Banat
44  1.  2.  3. Laibach, Venice, Chiggia 4. Kaposvár Kaposvár Hungary
45  1.  2.  3. Pilsen, Budweis, Krumau 4. Verona Verona Venetia
46  1.  2.  3. Palmanuova, Görz, Gradisca 4. Szegedin Szegedin Hungary
47  1.  2.  3. Graz, 3. Bat. Sebenico, Dernis, Knin 4. Marburg Marburg Styria  
48  1.  2.  3. Verona, Revere, Sermide, Ostiglia 4. Nagy-Kanizsa Nagy-Kanizsa Hungary
49  1.  2.  3. 1.&2. Bat. Klagenfurt, Villach, Vöklermarkt, 3. Bat. Rastatt 4. St. Pölten St. Pölten Lower Austria
50  1.  2.  3. Rovigo, Crespino, Adria 4. Carlsburg Carlsburg Siebenbürgen
51  1.  2.  3. Lemberg 4. Klausenburg Klausenburg Siebenbürgen
52  1.  2.  3. Triest, Parenzo, Capo d'Istria, Pirano 4. Fünfkirchen Fünfkirchen Hungary
53  1.  2.  3. Verona 4. Agram Agram Croatia
54  1.  2.  3. Verona, Pastrengo, Ceraino 4. Olmütz Olmütz Moravia
55  1.  2.  3. Pesth 4. Brzezan Brzezan East Galicia
56  1.  2.  3. Leutschau, Késmark, Igló, Rosenau 4. Wadowice Wadowice West Galicia
57  1.  2.  3. Klausenburg, Carlsburg 4. Tarnow Tarnow West Galicia
58  1.  2.  3. 1.&2. Bat. Agram, 3. Bat. Brody 4. Stanislau Stanislau East Galicia
59  1.  2.  3. Brixen, Bozen, Franzensfeste 4. Salzburg Salzburg Upper Austria,Salzb.
60  1.  2.  3. Olmütz 4. Erlau Erlau Hungary
61  1.  2.  3. Brünn, Karthaus 4. Temesvár Temesvár Banat
62  1.  2.  3. Udine 4. Maros-Vásárhely Maros-Vásárhely Siebenbürgen
63  1.  2.  3. Mantua, Borgoforte 4. Bistritz Bistritz Siebenbürgen
64  1.  2.  3. Vienna 4. Déva Déva Siebenbürgen
65  1.  2.  3. Mantua 4. Munkács Munkács Hungary
66  1.  2.  3. Verona 4. Unghvár Unghvár Hungary
67  1.  2.  3. 1.&2. Bat. Strý, Stanislau, 3. Bat. Lemberg 4. Eperjes Eperjes Hungary
68  1.  2.  3. Czernowitz, Suczawa, Tarnopol 4. Szolnok Szolnok Hungary
69  1.  2.  3. Vienna 4. Stuhlweissenburg Stuhlweissenburg Hungary
70  1.  2.  3. Vicenza, Schio, Thiene 4. Neusohl Neusohl Hungary
71  1.  2.  3. Treviso, Feltre, Castelfranco 4. Trentschin Trentschin Hungary
72  1.  2.  3. Radkersburg, Neumünster, 3. Bat. Mainz 4. Pressburg Pressburg Hungary
73  1.  2.  3. Cracow 4. Eger Eger Bohemia
74  1.  2.  3. Venice, 3. Bat. Frankfurt am Main 4. Jičin Jičin Bohemia
75  1.  2.  3. Verona, Vallegio, Villafranca 4. Neuhaus Neuhaus Bohemia
76  1.  2.  3. Padua, Padadopoli 4. Ödenburg Ödenburg Hungary
77  1.  2.  3. Arad, Szegedin 4. Sambor Sambor East Galicia
78  1.  2.  3. Pola, Rovigo, Lussin, Piccolo 4. Esseg Esseg Croat. & Slavonia
79  1.  2.  3. Pressburg, Comorn 4. Pordenone Pordenone Venetia
80  1.  2.  3. Vienna 4. Verona & Vicenza Vicenza Venetia

                                                                         

[Blaker]

WOW 

Thanks for that list cameronian 

[mollinary]

But sadly not a Saxon among them!

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Order of Battle of the Royal Saxon Army Corps 1866

The following order of battle shows the composition of the Royal Saxon Army Corps allied with and attached to the Austrian army of the North during the campaign in Bohemia in June/July 1866. The Saxons under the command of Crown Prince Albert of Saxony fought bravely and skillfully during the battles of Gitschin and Königgrätz and this order of battle reflects the situation as at the 20th of June 1866.

Corps Commander General der Infanterie Kronprinz Albert, Herzog zu Sachsen
Adjutants: Oberst Prinz Schönburg
- Rittmeister Friedrich Clemens Senfft von Pilsach
Orderly Officers Oberleutnant Ernst Otto von Berlepsch
- Oberleutnant Maximilian Heinrich Adam von Wuthenau
- Oberleutnant Hans von Schütz
Chief of Staff Generalmajor Georg Friedrich Alfred von Fabrice
Adjutant Hauptmann Ernst Bernhard Graf Vitzthum
Deputy Chief of Staff Major Bernhard Funke
Staff Officer Hauptmann Schubert
- Oberleutnant Hans Florian von Nostitz-Drzewiecki
- Guiden-Leutnant Brückner
Director of Artillery Generalmajor Ludwig Schmalz
Adjutants: Hauptmann Otto Schweingel
- Oberleutnant Friedrich Keyßelitz
Director of Engineers Oberst Friedrich Otto Peters
Intendant Oberst Eduin Freiherr von Friesen
Medical Director General-Stabsarzt Dr. August Günther
Judge Advocate Oberkriegsgerichtsrath Eugen Dietrich
Staff Judge Advocates: Stabsauditeur Victor Baumgarten-Crusius
Auditeur Meinhold
Field Provisions Officer Proviant-Verwalter Carl Fellmer
Field Telegraph Detachment: Telegraphen-Director Pörsch
- Assistent von Vitzthum
Field Gendarmerie: Rittmeister von Stammer
- Oberleutnant von Römer
Chaplains: Feldprobst: Ober-Katechet Dr. Fricke
- Vikar Hering
- Vikar Hermann
Train Oberstleutnant Edmund Schmalz
Attached K.k. Oberst  Joseph Pelikan von Plauenfeld
-- K.k. Kriegs-Commissär Wilhelm Schlosser
- -
1.Infanterie-Division
Generallieutenant Bernhard von Schimpf
Chief of Staff Major Friedrich von Zeschwitz
Adjutant Hauptmann Eduard Reyher
2.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Hermann von Hake
2.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant August Tauscher
5.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Moritz von Rohrscheidt
6.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Carl von Metzradt
7.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Ferdinand Otto von Gablenz
8.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Kurt Alexander von Elterlein
3.Infanterie-Brigade Generalmajor Georg Job von Carlowitz
3.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Hugo Philipp Arthur von der Mosel
9.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Bernhard von Leonhardi
10.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Heinrich von Abendroth
11.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Johann von Wolffersdorff
12.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Ernst Adolph von Craushaar
Divisional Cavalry Major Ernst von Standfest
4.Escadron 2.Reiter-Regiment Rittmeister Alexander Schubuth
4.Escadron 3.Reiter-Regiment Rittmeister Rudolph von Minckwitz
Divisional Artillery Oberstlieutenant Carl Weigl
Gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Walther Hauptmann Georg Adolph Walther
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie von der Pfordte Hauptmann Curt Adolph von der Pfordte
- -
2.Infanterie-Division
Generallieutenant Thuisko von Stieglitz
Chief of Staff Oberstlieutenant Alban von Montbé
Leib.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Clemens Freiherr von Hausen
4.Jäger-Bataillon Major Julius Carl Adolph von Schulz
13.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Maximilian August von Schmieden
14.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Rudolph von Bünau
15.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Friedrich Otto Hamann
16.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstleutnant von Friesen
1.Infanterie-Brigade Oberst Emil von Boxberg
1.Jäger-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Gustav Nehrhoff von Holderberg
1.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Johannes Freiherr von Wagner
2.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Friedrich von Sandersleben
3.Infanterie-Bataillon Major Julius Roßky
4.Infanterie-Bataillon Oberstlieutenant Carl Heinrich Freiherr von Kochtitzky
 
Reiter-Division
Generallieutenant Bernhard Albert Freiherr von Fritsch
Chief of Staff Hauptmann Adolph Leopold von Tscheresky und Bögendorf
1.Reiter-Brigade Generalmajor Prinz Georg von Sachsen
Garde-Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Franz Graf und Edler Herr zur Lippe-Biesterfeld-Weißenfeld
1.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Friedrich von Beulwitz
2.Reiter-Brigade Generalmajor Moritz Freiherr von Biedermann
2.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Hugo Senfft von Pilsach
3.Reiter-Regiment, 1., 2., 3. Escadron Oberst Otto von Ludwiger
-
Artillerie-Reserve Oberst Bruno Köhler
1.Artillerie-Brigade Major Johann von Watzdorf
gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Leonhardi Hauptmann Edmund Constanz Leonardi
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie Legnik Hauptmann Carl Emil Legnik
12pfünd. Granat-Kanonen-Batterie Westmann Hauptmann Friedrich Heinrich Alexander Westmann
2.Artillerie-Brigade Major Adolf Albrecht
gezogene 6pfünd. Batterie Heidenreich Hauptmann Bernhard August Heinrich Heidenreich
12pfünd. reitende Batterie Hoch
Hauptmann Carl Julius Bernhard Hoch

[mollinary]

Wow! Enough Saxons there for anyone!    I can probably find my copy of the Stuart Sutherland translation of the Saxon offical history, which I believe allocates numbers to those formations. I'll have a look tonight.

Mollinary

[maciek]

The two units in bold were the best regiments in the KUK army of 1866 IMHO.

4 1. 2. 3. Pesth 4. Korneuburg Vienna, Korneuburg Lower Austria 

"Hoch und Deutschmeister"      Teutonic Knights ...

[cameronian]

KUK IR 4, The Children of Vienna, hard as nails, took a lot of killing.
KUK IR 47, Palace Guard Gratz, reputation for ferocity in close quarter fighting.
Mollinary, give me a day or so and I'll dig up the numbers, bit busy tonight.

[Chad]

The information in 'The Campaign of 1866' provides sufficient information for wargame purposes, even if it is 'Prussian'. Another useful work is 'The Organisation of the German State Forces in 1866' by Stuart Sutherland. This work includes the Saxon army and also lists the regimental strengths in May and June 1866.

Chad

[mollinary]

Cameronian,

   Thanks for the offer, but I was offering too, not asking!   I did not find my Sutherland Saxon History, but got the following from Smith's Campaigns of 1866.
Ist Inf Division    2nd Brigade: 2 jagers 907, 5Btn 947, 6Btn 921, 7Btn 936, 8Btn 921
                       3rd Brigade:  3 jagers 910, 9Btn 935, 10Btn 949, 11Btn 879, 12 Btn 953
                       Div Arty   1x6pdr rifled battery, 1x12pdr shell battery.
                       Div cavalry 4th sqdns of 2nd and 3rd Reiters  Total 326

2nd Inf Division   4th Brigade: 4 jagers 942, 13Btn 919, 14Btn 941, 15Btn 913, 16Btn 967
                        1st Brigade: 1 jagers 884, 1Btn 957, 2Btn 920, 3Btn 931, 4Btn 930
                        Div Arty 1x6pdr rifled battery, 1x12pdr shell battery
                        Div Cavalry 4th sqdns Guard and 1st Reiters Total 339

Cavalry Division    1st Cav Bde  Guard Reiters   453 in 3 sqdns, 1st Reiters 527 in 3 sqdns
                        2nd Cav Bde 2nd Reiters      499 in 3 sqns,  4th Reiters 523 in 3 sqdns
                        Div Arty 1x12pdr Horse Bty
Corps Arty reserve        1st Brigade: 1x6pdr rifled Bty, 2x12pdr shell Bty
                                  2nd Brigade: 1x6pdr rifled bty, 1x12pdr Horse Bty
   All Batteries of 6 guns apart from 1x12pdr battery in ist Brigade Corps reserve Arty, which had 4.

Hope this helps someone.

Mollinary

[Chad]

Mollinary

That seems to match Sutherland's information. If the figures quoted are the June strengths, then it might be worth noting that Sutherland quotes them as  only 'rank and file', indicating that they would be slightly higher when officers are added.

Chad