My question this week is simple (!):
Which was the greatest empire of all time? Not just in military might, wealth, or size, but everything?
Easy: The Empire...you know, the one that struck back :P 8)
As a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire. Essentially created the modern world.
However as a 'cognitive empire', i'll pitch in with Charles Darwin and the Darwinian Empire of the mind. He finally broke the regressive hold of western religious dogma.
Hum, this is an hard question. :o
Maybe the First Empire cause the Revolution's ideas (Human rights, Nation ... ) could be knows in the others european countries (Italy, Germany...).
Can't believe you're not satisfied with my first answer quite honestly ;)
QuoteAs a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire. Essentially created the modern world.
Interesting: what about the Romans then? [cue obligatory Monty Python Life of Brian youtube excerpt 8)]
Python at its best... ;D
Quote from: Leon on 22 March 2010, 07:04:23 PM
Which was the greatest empire of all time? Not just in military might, wealth, or size, but everything?
In terms of overall success, the Chinese Empire. Long run, and I have the impression that the current government considers itself to have received the mandate of heaven as well, and seems to be doing all the standard Chinese Empire things.
The British Empire was impressive, but is was not around for long as such things go.
Quote from: nikharwood on 22 March 2010, 08:41:57 PM
Can't believe you're not satisfied with my first answer quite honestly ;)
QuoteAs a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire. Essentially created the modern world.
Interesting: what about the Romans then? [cue obligatory Monty Python Life of Brian youtube excerpt 8)]
What about them?
Dominant in there time but ultimately transient.
How many people today speak Latin as a first language? How many people (outside Rome) consider themselves to be 'Roman', in the way one might consider oneself 'Anglo-Saxon?
And even in their time, was there ever really a 'unified Roman Empire'? Debateable.
And what were its achievements...really? Most of what we might point to were actually Greek/Etruscan innovations that the Romans appropriated.
Quote from: lentulus on 23 March 2010, 12:40:21 AM
In terms of overall success, the Chinese Empire. Long run, and I have the impression that the current government considers itself to have received the mandate of heaven as well, and seems to be doing all the standard Chinese Empire things.
Thats an interesting suggestion. 2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive. the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended? What did it give to the world?
Quote
The British Empire was impressive, but is was not around for long as such things go.
Indeed. To misquote - 'The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long; and the British Empire burned so very, very brightly'. It lasted, what? 400 years.
The reason i think its the greatest is because of its legacy. The modern (Western) world is essentially the product of the British Empire. Secular democracy. The Industrial revolution. Etc. Etc.
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 01:01:26 AM
Thats an interesting suggestion. 2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive. the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended? What did it give to the world?
The core success of the Chinese empire is reflected in the fact that we tend to think of its greatest extent as being more-or-less its "natural" borders -- although lots of folks living inside them might beg to disagree. And what did it give the world? Sir, it is the world. At least in its own mind, and what else matters for an Empire? It's no crazier than Pax Britannica.
Quote from: lentulus on 23 March 2010, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 01:01:26 AM
Thats an interesting suggestion. 2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive. the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended? What did it give to the world?
The core success of the Chinese empire is reflected in the fact that we tend to think of its greatest extent as being more-or-less its "natural" borders -- although lots of folks living inside them might beg to disagree. And what did it give the world? Sir, it is the world. At least in its own mind, and what else matters for an Empire? It's no crazier than Pax Britannica.
But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 06:36:17 PM
But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?
I believe that the list of empires that lack a "blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance" is a null set. It takes arrogance to build an empire, and the firm belief that you are really doing it for "their" sake, whether they like it or not; or that "you" have a better claim to run their affairs than "they" do.
On the ground, day to day, empires are nasty pieces of work.
Quote from: lentulus on 23 March 2010, 06:45:35 PM
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 06:36:17 PM
But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?
I believe that the list of empires that lack a "blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance" is a null set. It takes arrogance to build an empire, and the firm belief that you are really doing it for "their" sake, whether they like it or not; or that "you" have a better claim to run their affairs than "they" do.
On the ground, day to day, empires are nasty pieces of work.
I agree, but what makes the Chinese Empire 'greater' than the British Empire?
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 10:29:14 PM
I agree, but what makes the Chinese Empire 'greater' than the British Empire?
Durability, and the the fact (as many a Tibetan or eastern Kazakh would agree) that they are still in the the Empire business. Britain held a significant empire from when? Generously 1600-1960 - 360 years? Heck, when I was born a Canadian Citizen was still a British subject; now even the Scots have their own Parliament.
The Mandate of Heaven may come from a book by Marx and a picture of Mao, but I don't think Democracy or National Self Determination are going to break out any time soon.
Interesting.
So the greatness of an Empire is measured in its longevity rather than its achievements?
Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols? Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?
Quote from: Leon on 24 March 2010, 02:50:29 AM
Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?
Oh dear, someone's been skipping lots of classes.. ;)
QuoteHow many people today speak Latin as a first language?
Wrong question: what about how many people today speak a first language that is a derivative of Latin?
Quote from: Leon on 24 March 2010, 02:50:29 AM
Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols? Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?
Britain has been successfully invaded by numerous countries.Its currently a vassal state of the Yank empire (if you see Luke Skywalker,tell him we could do with a hand).
Quote from: Luddite on 23 March 2010, 11:23:19 PM
So the greatness of an Empire is measured in its longevity rather than its achievements?
What does one usually list for imperial achievements? Great engineering works (flood control in the Chinese case)? Check. Widespread dissemination of culture over a large area (Chinese writing)? Check. Providing a peace and a legal environment for trade? Check. If I knew a significant amount of Chinese history I could probably cite a lt more examples.
It didn't accomplish much in Europe, so we tend to disregard it. The European empires of the 18th Century were able to impose their will on it, but I expect the Vandals and Visigoths felt pretty good about themselves too. But while the Roman Empire went down and stayed down, the Chinese keep standing back up.
So what did the British Empire accomplish? Certainly here in Canada the First Nations and Quebecois would sooner it had never turned up. India is a unified democracy, but how much is that really to Britain's credit, and how much to the Indian's? Lots of people speak English, but then a lot of them (our friends in the states for example) ditched the British part at the first opportunity.
Quote from: Leon on 24 March 2010, 02:50:29 AM
Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols? Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?
I should probably have clarified this so that I didn't look like a dumbass...
I meant within the period we're calling the 'British Empire', which is the last what, 400 years? Meaning that as a power, it's never been beaten on home ground, whereas a large chunk of China was controlled by the Mongols at one point?
Quote from: Leon on 24 March 2010, 04:32:17 PM
I meant within the period we're calling the 'British Empire', which is the last what, 400 years? Meaning that as a power, it's never been beaten on home ground, whereas a large chunk of China was controlled by the Mongols at one point?
Followed by the Mongols becoming the next imperial dynasty; invaders of China have tended to be assimilated. It's been argued that, were in not for the P&O line, the British would have been assimilated in India in much the same way.
Quote from: lentulus on 24 March 2010, 05:03:26 PM
Followed by the Mongols becoming the next imperial dynasty; invaders of China have tended to be assimilated. It's been argued that, were in not for the P&O line, the British would have been assimilated in India in much the same way.
Weren't the upper classes of both the Indians/Brits firmly against any mixing between the troops and the Indian people? Although, I suppose, given enough time, they wouldn't have been able to stop it anyway.
Sort of ....
IanS
The British Empire - although not long lived it created the modern world, inventions, Political policies, freedom of speech.
achaemenid persian!
what a luxury!!
But the barbarian Alexander "the destroyer" end it up by force.
I vote for Rome. It left a lasting impact and for centuries people yearned a return to this "Golden Age"
The Empire's legacy survived for more than 1500 years in the Byzantine empire, and after it fell, everybody styled themselves after Caesar, with Czars and Kaisers ...
Quote from: Leon on 24 March 2010, 05:46:03 PM
Weren't the upper classes of both the Indians/Brits firmly against any mixing...
I believe their wives were, more to the point.
The Chinese gets my vote, though from a european point of view you can't argue with Napoleon's, a lot of modern europe stems from then politically
Greetings
I think we're seeing the British Empire from too close a distance to put it into perspective. We'd need to be at least another hundred years down the track to come to a comparative quasi-objective view.
As far as the Romans were concerned their empire lasted until 1453AD (though largely titular after the Fourth Crusade) and left lots of countries jurisprudence, language base, script as well as lots of ideas that began to resurface in Western Europe with the Renaissance.
China as an Empire has to be considered extremely successful as it has managed to transform virtually all of its territorial expanse into a single modern nation state.
Regards
Edward
That's interesting, I didn't know the Roman's were still around in the 15th C.
I think China's acheivements within it's own boundary are good, but it's never really attempted anything on a global scale has it?
Quote from: Leon on 14 May 2010, 04:01:37 PM
That's interesting, I didn't know the Roman's were still around in the 15th C.
I think China's acheivements within it's own boundary are good, but it's never really attempted anything on a global scale has it?
Well, what does "attempting on a global scale" really mean? No-one has tried an empire in which they were not aware of some bit they didn't try to conquer. The most they try is to get the "good bits".
Quote from: lentulus on 14 May 2010, 04:08:00 PM
Well, what does "attempting on a global scale" really mean? No-one has tried an empire in which they were not aware of some bit they didn't try to conquer. The most they try is to get the "good bits".
In the sense that England/Britain, and many other European nations, have explored the world, influencing a huge number of different cultures on the way. Whereas the Chinese Empire never pushed their boundaries to that extent. It's a different level of ambition.
Quote from: Leon on 14 May 2010, 04:12:59 PM
In the sense that England/Britain, and many other European nations, have explored the world, influencing a huge number of different cultures on the way. Whereas the Chinese Empire never pushed their boundaries to that extent. It's a different level of ambition.
Or a different level of timing. Who was it said that the British created their Empire in a fit of absent-mindedness?
Quote from: lentulus on 14 May 2010, 04:25:19 PM
Or a different level of timing. Who was it said that the British created their Empire in a fit of absent-mindedness?
I've no idea on that one.
Ah, here we go:
from http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article389186.ece
Quote
In 1883, Sir John Seeley published The Expansion of England, in which he famously observed that the English (or did he mean the British?) seemed to have acquired their far-flung empire in what he called “a fit of absence of mindâ€.
Haha!
For a 'fit of absence of mind' they did pretty well though?!