Q of the Week - Greatest Empire?

[Leon]

My question this week is simple (!):

Which was the greatest empire of all time?  Not just in military might, wealth, or size, but everything?

[nikharwood]

Easy: The Empire...you know, the one that struck back 

[Luddite]

As a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire.  Essentially created the modern world.


However as a 'cognitive empire', i'll pitch in with Charles Darwin and the Darwinian Empire of the mind.  He finally broke the regressive hold of western religious dogma.

[Nicofig]

Hum, this is an hard question.

Maybe the First Empire cause the Revolution's ideas (Human rights, Nation ... )  could be knows in the others european countries (Italy, Germany...).

[nikharwood]

Can't believe you're not satisfied with my first answer quite honestly 

As a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire.  Essentially created the modern world.

Interesting: what about the Romans then? [cue obligatory Monty Python Life of Brian youtube excerpt  ]

[Gunhit]

Python at its best...

[lentulus]

Which was the greatest empire of all time?  Not just in military might, wealth, or size, but everything?

In terms of overall success, the Chinese Empire.  Long run, and I have the impression that the current government considers itself to have received the mandate of heaven as well, and seems to be doing all the standard Chinese Empire things.

The British Empire was impressive, but is was not around for long as such things go.

[Luddite]

Can't believe you're not satisfied with my first answer quite honestly 

As a political and secular body, all things considered, the British Empire.  Essentially created the modern world.

Interesting: what about the Romans then? [cue obligatory Monty Python Life of Brian youtube excerpt  ]

What about them?

Dominant in there time but ultimately transient.

How many people today speak Latin as a first language?  How many people (outside Rome) consider themselves to be 'Roman', in the way one might consider oneself 'Anglo-Saxon?

And even in their time, was there ever really a 'unified Roman Empire'?  Debateable.

And what were its achievements...really?  Most of what we might point to were actually Greek/Etruscan innovations that the Romans appropriated.

In terms of overall success, the Chinese Empire.  Long run, and I have the impression that the current government considers itself to have received the mandate of heaven as well, and seems to be doing all the standard Chinese Empire things.

Thats an interesting suggestion.  2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive.  the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended?  What did it give to the world?

The British Empire was impressive, but is was not around for long as such things go.

Indeed.  To misquote - 'The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long; and the British Empire burned so very, very brightly'.  It lasted, what?  400 years.

The reason i think its the greatest is because of its legacy.  The modern (Western) world is essentially the product of the British Empire.  Secular democracy.  The Industrial revolution. Etc.  Etc.

[lentulus]

Thats an interesting suggestion.  2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive.  the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended?  What did it give to the world?

The core success of the Chinese empire is reflected in the fact that we tend to think of its greatest extent as being more-or-less its "natural" borders -- although lots of folks living inside them might beg to disagree.  And what did it give the world?  Sir, it is the world.  At least in its own mind, and what else matters for an Empire?  It's no crazier than Pax Britannica.

[Luddite]

Thats an interesting suggestion.  2000 years of Imperial China in three phases is certainly impressive.  the question i'd ask is 'how far beyond its borders has 'China' extended?  What did it give to the world?

The core success of the Chinese empire is reflected in the fact that we tend to think of its greatest extent as being more-or-less its "natural" borders -- although lots of folks living inside them might beg to disagree.  And what did it give the world?  Sir, it is the world.  At least in its own mind, and what else matters for an Empire?  It's no crazier than Pax Britannica.

But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?

[lentulus]

But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?

I believe that the list of empires that lack a "blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance" is a null set.  It takes arrogance to build an empire, and the firm belief that you are really doing it for "their" sake, whether they like it or not; or that "you" have a better claim to run their affairs than "they" do.

On the ground, day to day, empires are nasty pieces of work.

[Luddite]

But does a blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance really make the Chinese empire 'great'?

I believe that the list of empires that lack a "blinkered and inflated sense of its own importance" is a null set.  It takes arrogance to build an empire, and the firm belief that you are really doing it for "their" sake, whether they like it or not; or that "you" have a better claim to run their affairs than "they" do.

On the ground, day to day, empires are nasty pieces of work.

I agree, but what makes the Chinese Empire 'greater' than the British Empire?

[lentulus]

I agree, but what makes the Chinese Empire 'greater' than the British Empire?

Durability, and the the fact (as many a Tibetan or eastern Kazakh would agree) that they are still in the the Empire business.  Britain held a significant empire from when?  Generously  1600-1960 - 360 years?   Heck, when I was born a Canadian Citizen was still a British subject; now even the Scots have their own Parliament.

The Mandate of Heaven may come from a book by Marx and a picture of Mao, but I don't think Democracy or National Self Determination are going to break out any time soon.

[Luddite]

Interesting.

So the greatness of an Empire is measured in its longevity rather than its achievements?

[Leon]

Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols?  Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?

[Aart Brouwer]

Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?

Oh dear, someone's been skipping lots of classes.. 

[nikharwood]

How many people today speak Latin as a first language?

Wrong question: what about how many people today speak a first language that is a derivative of Latin?

[Kebabman]

Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols?  Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?

Britain has been successfully invaded by numerous countries.Its currently a vassal state of the Yank empire (if you see Luke Skywalker,tell him we could do with a hand).

[lentulus]

So the greatness of an Empire is measured in its longevity rather than its achievements?

What does one usually list for imperial achievements?  Great engineering works (flood control in the Chinese case)? Check.  Widespread dissemination of culture over a large area (Chinese writing)?  Check.  Providing a peace and a legal environment for trade?  Check.  If I knew a significant amount of Chinese history I could probably cite a lt more examples.

It didn't accomplish much in Europe, so we tend to disregard it.   The European empires of the 18th Century were able to impose their will on it, but I expect the Vandals and Visigoths felt pretty good about themselves too.  But while the Roman Empire went down and stayed down, the Chinese keep standing back up.

So what did the British Empire accomplish?  Certainly here in Canada the First Nations and Quebecois would sooner it had never turned up.  India is a unified democracy, but how much is that really to Britain's credit, and how much to the Indian's?  Lots of people speak English, but then a lot of them (our friends in the states for example)  ditched the British part at the first opportunity.

[Leon]

Wasn't China conquered by the Mongols?  Whereas Britain has never been successfully invaded?

I should probably have clarified this so that I didn't look like a dumbass...

I meant within the period we're calling the 'British Empire', which is the last what, 400 years?  Meaning that as a power, it's never been beaten on home ground, whereas a large chunk of China was controlled by the Mongols at one point?