Hi all,
Man this one is a can of worms...
How many standard bearers should I have in an Austro-Hungarian Infantry unit of 45 figures?
I know the unit is real life had 6, what do you reckon for aesthetics, 1 or 2?
Ta
How many do you want?
[1] National flag
[2] Unit flag
[3] Anything else?
One of each; two of each?
Its one per battalion - 1 Lieb, the rest are Ordinaire.
I have 2 per 6 bases - each base 2 rows of 7, with 2 men at back - so 96 men total, 2 rows of 42. That's a lot of men to lose a flag in. They also represent Regiments. If I use them as battalions I can either drop a base or just go 'sod it'.
My WSS PENDRAKEN troops are 6 x 6 (2 rows of 3) with 2 flags as a Battalion, and they seem fine.
Each set of 45 figures will be a regiment. I suspect 2, but it's pure aesthetics
No help - but what looks right
As Last Hussar indicates, the word is that each battalion reverted to only one flag in 1809.
A regiment had three battalions and so the first battalion carried the Leibfahne with the other two carrying Ordinarfahne.
Here's a link to the Warflag website:
https://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/austria.htm (https://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/austria.htm)
Austrian standards:
1792 through to the Mack reforms of 1805 - 2 standards per battalion, 1st btn one leibfahne and 1 ordinarfahne, the other two btns carried a pair of ordinarfahnes.
This changed under the reforms of Mack in 1805, where the btns were reduced to 4 companies and the grenadiers amalgamated into the new 1st leib btn. The decree of 22 June reduced the standards to one per btn. The 1st leib (grenadier) btn carried the leibfahne, the other four btns a single ordinarfahne.
With the failure of the Mack reforms (to what extent they were actually carried out) the situation reverted in 1806-07 to that of 1792-05 (or possibly never really changed)
The reforms of 1808 reduced the standards carried to 1 leibfahne in the 1st (leib) btn and 1 ordinarfahne in the other two btns.
That remained the situation through to the end of the wars.
Grenadier btns (those formed of amalgamated companies from different regiments) only ever carried a single ordinarfahne when they formed once war was declared - this standard usually came from the depot of the senior of the 2 or 3 regiments providing the grenadier contingents. Only in 1805 under the Mack reforms did grenadiers carry a leibfahne.
Jagers never carried flags.
Landwehr either had their own unique and largely unknown provincial flags or more correctly a single ordinarfahne per btn.
Grenzer followed the system of the infantry regiments, initially 2 per btn and then 1. The only difference appears to be that they reduced to 1 standard in 1807 prior to the 1808 reforms.
For our purposes therefore we have:
1792-1801 = 2 flags per btn
1805 = 1 flag per reformed btn (if you believe the reforms were carried out)
1809 - 1815 = 1 flag per btn
I'm gonna need a lot more standard bearers! ;D
How come?
It can't really be much less than 1 per btn ...
Maybe the real question is what unit does your "45 fig Austro-Hungarian infantry unit" represent? Battalion or Regiment? Even so for 1809 I'd keep it to 1 flag ... unless you have the base set out with three distinct battalions of 15 to look like a deployed regiment, in which case the answer would be 3 I guess :D
3 x 15s, but as a regiment, so to annoy everyone, I'm your two flags, in the wrong places.
Thought it might be something along those lines.
You could probably get away with a 'regimental command cluster' a couple of flags and a mtd CO with drummer
Lets get this straight...
You didn't plan
You rushed into it
And now want someone else to solve the problem you caused...
Are you Boris Johnson by any chance?
Rushed, no, I'm sorry, this is beyond rushed, it's a complete butterfly project!
I don't even own the appropriate Osprey for these figures yet!
Sounds even more like Boris...
You asked "How many standard bearers should I have in an Austro-Hungarian Infantry unit of 45 figures?" None at all. Infantry do not have standards, only cavalry have standards. :)
An Austrian regiment on war footing had three battalions in 1809, one of which was the depot battalion, and a grenadier division comprising two companies which was detached in war to form combined grenadier battalions with grenadier divisions from other regiments. In 1808 the number of colours, drapeaux or fahnen, if you speak German or French (never refer to a British regiment's colours as flags though), was reduced to one per battalion.
Its a flag.
Just with a different name.
That is an excellent answer! Thank you. ;D
Two flags look good.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 04 June 2020, 11:58:52 PM
Its a flag.
Just with a different name.
Well, yes, but they are the embodiment of a regiment's spirit and history and to describe them as 'a flag, just with a different name' would be a calculated insult to any soldier of the regiment in question, and the regiment as a whole. It is also wrong.
I restrict my 1809 Austrian regiments to one paper fahnen each.
www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost136.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost136.htm)
You can see by this list that three battalions in the field was very usual:
www.michaelscott.name/1809/knapsack/1809austrian-lineinf.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/knapsack/1809austrian-lineinf.htm)
There are a good number of variations of fahnen available for 1809 because Austrian units appear to have been happy to carry on carrying old fahnen. I've designed and printed a selection, some with regimental numbers. I was lucky to have access to a colour laser printer. So getting the PVA out now is top of my to-do list!
As you have 3 sub-units, you could have a single 'regimental' command group of a flag, officer and drummers and when some oik comments claim it's actually a battalion deployed in divisions.
Or you could suck it up and provide one flag to each unit like it should be.
2 flags though would just be wrong, so that's probably what you should do, thus ensuring some know-it-all will take delight in pointing your ignorance out to you in detail and provide you with a legitimate outlet for pent-up lockdown syndrome.
Fahne is German for flags.
That means we are just using the English word for the Austrian name. :d
Thanks all.
To sum up. Lemmy
Two poles with squares of cloth are fine for a regiment.
Thank you.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 05 June 2020, 06:09:02 PM
To sum up. Lemmy
Two poles with squares of cloth are fine for a regiment.
I'm sure you mean staffs, don't you. ;)
No, they're Austrian.
Poles,Czechs, Croats...
I see. Then you should have written it as "Two Poles...." with an initial capital letter, if you really meant the proper noun. It is very important to get these thing right ;D.
My work here is done. I can now hand on the duty of irritating people with practical linguistics!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 06 June 2020, 01:27:46 PM
My work here is done. I can now hand on the duty of irritating people with practical linguistics!
We could always form a tag-team. :D
Quote from: Last Hussar on 05 June 2020, 05:10:51 PM
Fahne is German for flags.
That means we are just using the English word for the Austrian name. :d
We, however, are British, not some foreign Johnnies, and do things properly and, of course, German infantry do not carry a standarte ;)
Err...I'm not.
My commiserations, it must be a heavy cross to bear :D
A South African passport? You don't know the half of it!
The English, the English are best,
wouldn't give tuppence for all the rest,
it's not that they are naturally bad,
it's being forign that makes em so mad
with thanks to Flanders and Swan :d
Quote from: FierceKitty on 06 June 2020, 01:54:51 PM
A South African passport? You don't know the half of it!
We cherish our ignorance.
For value the American passport is the most valuable; for versatility the British. Thanks to the empire you can get into more countries without a visa than anywhere else. Having a New Zealand passport is the most innocuous.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 06 June 2020, 01:54:51 PM
A South African passport? You don't know the half of it!
Do you regularly get beaten up by James Bond for being rude to hotel staff?
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 06 June 2020, 06:42:23 PM
...Having a New Zealand passport is the most innocuous.
I'm not sure whether to feel insulted or smug ;)
Quote from: paulr on 06 June 2020, 10:18:07 PM
I'm not sure whether to feel insulted or smug ;)
I think you can feel safe. ;) 8)
I get on well with most hotel staff, since I can usually speak their lingo.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 06 June 2020, 06:42:23 PM
We cherish our ignorance.
For value the American passport is the most valuable;
Not so sure of that. in some parts of the world its enough to make you a prime target, for some very unsavoury characters and thier even more unsavoury habits
I'm going to Hijack my own thread, take it back on topic...
It's a yellow one for cavalry regiments, right? ;)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 08 June 2020, 07:12:43 AM
I'm going to Hijack my own thread, take it back on topic...
It's a yellow one for cavalry regiments, right? ;)
How dare you sir!
That's a flogging offence
Cavalry standards are identical to infantry flags but reduced in size 800x800mm. from 1680(1760)x1400 for infantry (1806 pattern)
Leibstandarte (white) is issued to the 1st squadron
Eskadronestandarte (yellow) to each of the other squadrons [number of squadrons changes with date]
I'll note that we haven't discussed which pattern of standard/flag for 1809 yet. There's a 1792, an 1804 and 1806 version for infantry; 1792 and 1806 for cavalry. Although in fact the 1804 pattern was barely manufactured let alone distributed. The 1806 pattern deleted reference to teh HRE and changed the FII cypher to FI accordingly plus some other changes. 1792 pattern were carried until lost or worn out though, so the choice is yours in 1809 ...
I've used the 1804 for 1809, because it's nicer on the back than the 1806.
Its in 1:200, and I fold to give the flying effect, so won't be seen by anyone who would criticise.
So, the ones Pendraken sell are okay? ;)
Id use them
Thanks
Yep, the PD flags are absolutely fine (I use them) - as I say a mixture of patterns was in use throughout so its one of those areas where you can't be wrong except in the highly unlikely event of someone turning up with teh regimental history of IR ## and citing the loss of its 1792 standards at Ober Grottling in October 1810 in an accidental church fire...
1792? My sources say 1794.
Quote from: Zippee on 09 June 2020, 08:43:12 AM
Yep, the PD flags are absolutely fine (I use them) - as I say a mixture of patterns was in use throughout so its one of those areas where you can't be wrong except in the highly unlikely event of someone turning up with teh regimental history of IR ## and citing the loss of its 1792 standards at Ober Grottling in October 1810 in an accidental church fire...
For shame Zippee, have you not been reading this thread? Infantry regiments did not have standards!
Quote from: Zippee on 08 June 2020, 09:36:29 AM
How dare you sir!
That's a flogging offence
Cavalry standards are identical to infantry flags but reduced in size 800x800mm. from 1680(1760)x1400 for infantry (1806 pattern)
Leibstandarte (white) is issued to the 1st squadron
Eskadronestandarte (yellow) to each of the other squadrons [number of squadrons changes with date]
I'll note that we haven't discussed which pattern of standard/flag for 1809 yet. There's a 1792, an 1804 and 1806 version for infantry; 1792 and 1806 for cavalry. Although in fact the 1804 pattern was barely manufactured let alone distributed. The 1806 pattern deleted reference to teh HRE and changed the FII cypher to FI accordingly plus some other changes. 1792 pattern were carried until lost or worn out though, so the choice is yours in 1809 ...
It is my understanding that the 1804 pattern never really saw the light of day, presented perhaps to no more than a couple of regiments before the 1806 pattern appeared.
Quote from: fred. on 09 June 2020, 09:50:22 AM
1792? My sources say 1794.
1792 - Leopold II died and the 1780 pattern flag was altered just enough to read Franz II - that alteration became known as the 1792 pattern but it was really just an alteration not a re-issue
Quote from: John Cook on 09 June 2020, 12:00:28 PM
It is my understanding that the 1804 pattern never really saw the light of day, presented perhaps to no more than a couple of regiments before the 1806 pattern appeared.
I think that's what I said, the 1804 pattern was decreed on 11 August 1804, but the production order was only issued on 28 March 1805. No one knows exactly how many were made before the 1806 pattern was decreed.
According to Dave Hollins only IR4 based in Vienna is likely to have received the 1804 pattern and then probably only a ordinarfahne. A pair of standards were presented to IR4 in June 1806, but Hollins thinks the leibfahne was a replacement for the one lost in 1805 not a new 1804 issue. No idea why he thinks that but my notes indicates he thinks no others appear to have been issued.
I don't like the back of the 1806.
Quote from: Zippee on 09 June 2020, 05:41:03 PM
I think that's what I said, the 1804 pattern was decreed on 11 August 1804, but the production order was only issued on 28 March 1805. No one knows exactly how many were made before the 1806 pattern was decreed.
According to Dave Hollins only IR4 based in Vienna is likely to have received the 1804 pattern and then probably only a ordinarfahne. A pair of standards were presented to IR4 in June 1806, but Hollins thinks the leibfahne was a replacement for the one lost in 1805 not a new 1804 issue. No idea why he thinks that but my notes indicates he thinks no others appear to have been issued.
Yes, more or less. I was agreeing with you. I know Dave Hollins very well. I'll ask him. Dave wrote this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Imperial_Austrian_Army_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars
There's Another Place that often criticises him.
But then they sneer at most experts.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 June 2020, 05:57:31 PM
I don't like the back of the 1806.
The first half of 2020 can do one too!
What he said
I've not really enjoyed much after early October 2017
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 June 2020, 09:45:56 PM
There's Another Place that often criticises him.
But then they sneer at most experts.
What other place? Who criticises whom?
i assume the reference is to TMP where the Napoleonic Boards are notoriously bitchy and regularly descend into scholarly handbag scuffles between obstinate opinionists.
Dave used to insert his valuable and knowledgeable comments but like many has been driven away by the unfriendly response (admittedly he could also be somewhat terse at times)
I do not know him ersonally but I'm familiar enough with his work to accept his opinion on most matters Austrian as more than good enough for wargames
Quote from: Orcs on 07 June 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Not so sure of that. in some parts of the world its enough to make you a prime target, for some very unsavoury characters and thier even more unsavoury habits
True. If you want to travel in safety get a New Zealand passport. An American passport was worth £10,000 because of the demand to get into the USA. At least that was the case a quarter of a century ago when I was in international business.
Quote from: Zippee on 10 June 2020, 09:41:24 AM
i assume the reference is to TMP where the Napoleonic Boards are notoriously bitchy and regularly descend into scholarly handbag scuffles between obstinate opinionists.
Dave used to insert his valuable and knowledgeable comments but like many has been driven away by the unfriendly response (admittedly he could also be somewhat terse at times)
I do not know him ersonally but I'm familiar enough with his work to accept his opinion on most matters Austrian as more than good enough for wargames
Thanks for that, I thought it might be. I'm not very good with 'coded' message :) The problem was really down to one person for whom the secondary sources, he approved of, were the fount of all knowledge and wisdom, and what was seen as the biased attitude of the person who owns and moderates the site. I think Dave just became exasperated, as did several other people. I stopped using TMP many years ago for much the same reason as he did. Using it became a thoroughly unpleasant experience too often. I take a look from time to time and nothing much has changed - it still seems to be just as you describe.
Its a good place for specific info, but they are a bugger for dismissing experts
I stopped visiting TMP a good few years ago, and am much happier for it.
Old topics occasionally come up in google searches, and I sometimes peruse them but will nearly always choose another source if one is available.
They can be good for rules queries. It when you have a title "Question about [rules]' and people post to say "I've never played these."
TMP is still not a bad place to ask questions, and I also visit to try and share my limited expertise with people who ask for help. Fortunately, most of the time, I stay clear of the Napoleonic fora!
I still visit but no longer bother to post.
Amongst the noise there remains some very valuable information that emerges from time to time but the number of contributors worth listening to has dropped away markedly.
Quote from: Zippee on 11 June 2020, 09:05:53 AM
I still visit but no longer bother to post.
Amongst the noise there remains some very valuable information that emerges from time to time but the number of contributors worth listening to has dropped away markedly.
Exactly. Such a shame really. The same thing happened with the now defunct Napoleon Series Forum.
I asked Dave Hollins about Austrian flags. He said that "Flags, like the helmet/shako question, keep coming round"...."it is a case of little scraps here and there, so the subject needs regular updating."
His source for the Pattern 1804 colours not being issued is Dr. F Kaindl's, Von den gemalten zu den gewebten Feldzeichen (Schriften des Heeresgeschichtlichesmuseum in Wien) Vol.4 pp. 39–49, 1969) but he points out there are at least two surviving examples plus three standards known to have been issued to the cavalry.
He goes on to say that the regimental history of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 4 is the source for the new colours being presented and as the date, June 1806, precedes the decree establishing the Pattern 1806, November 1806, the logic of it is that these would have been Pattern 1804. As the Wiener Hausregiment it is also possible to speculate that IR Nr 4 it would have been amongst the first to received the Pattern 1806.
In addition it is known that three Pattern 1804 standards were presented to three Hussar regiments, one of which was Nr7, because they were included in the catalogue of the 1909 Aspern anniversary exhibition (Katalog der Erzherzog Carl Ausstellung zur Jahrhundertfeier der Schlacht bei Aspern. Items 223/72-4). He also points out that no examples of the Pattern 1804, beyond those mentioned, are known.
The article here also states that only the Ordinarfahnen were affected by the Pattern 1804 changes. https://austria-forum.org/af/Wissenssammlungen/Essays/Geschichte/Kaisertum_Österreich_1804
My interpretation of all this is that as none were captured, and none have been preserved, it tends to suggest that few were presented. All the colours captured by the French are, I understand, Pattern 1792, some of which were taken quite late in the Napoleonic period. So, it is clear that the Pattern 1792 remained in use and either units with Pattern 1806 colours managed to avoid loosing them, or fewer Pattern 1806 were in use too.
So, for 1809, the choice is clear. Either Pattern 1792 or Pattern 1806. But, identifying which unit carried which pattern is not possible to say, at the moment. Rigo and Charrie in their plate on Austrian colours provide a list of which pattern, they think, was carried by regiments which formed the Austrian Corps that went to Russia in 1812. Dave tells me that there is also a list in the Austrian Kriegsarchiv, the result of research in the 1980s, which has yet to be exploited.
That is it for the moment. I'll pass on anything else if and when I get it.
Wow, great source, thank you.
Brilliant, John, many thanks! Not my specialist subject, but I love researching flags, and it is a joy to see sources being quoted rather than the same old wargamers' folklore being churned out. Bravo! :-bd =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
1804 still prettier than the '06.
I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with the Austrians, though. Mainly because I don't like all that white. I'd tend towards the Pattern 1792 if I ever did an 1809 project..
As 'spare' orinarfahne were issued to grenadiers and landwehr and suchlike, it's not unlikely that many of these would continue to be 1792 pattern - might explain the captured items.
Although regiments being what they are it'd be no surprise that some held on to existing examples as long as possible - especially if the inhaber had to fund them! Let alone commission and pay for spares to give to landwehr ...
I think you are right. Almost certainly Pattern 1792 in the main. Based on what we know about IR4 and its Pattern 1804 presentations, the flash to bang time from the order to procure flags and presentation to units would appear to be at least 15 months. We know that 45 units lost flags at Ulm alone (I'm not sure what was lost at Austerlitz) because these trophies were used to decorate Napoleon's tomb. IR4 is also the only unit known to have received the Pattern 1804 and the Pattern 1806 was ordered in December which, presumably, would have stopped any procurement of the Pattern 1804. So, it would appear possible that the units which lost flags in 1805 were still waiting for them to be replaced in, around, mid 1808 at the earliest. We also know that in 1808 flags were reduced to one per battalion, so we might further speculate that the surplus Pattern 1792 flags might well have been given to the units still without flags. I don't really know enough about Austrian procurement. Was it a state responsibility or that of the colonel? Not sure. I also don't know what the policy was with older patterns. Were they replaced with newer patterns as a whole (like British colours were with the Act of Union in 1800) or when they used until they wore out? My thought at the moment is that the Pattern 1792 probably predominated in 1809, with a few Pattern 1806 and no Pattern 1804 at all.
I checked. You are also right about the inhaber having to provide the flags.
It's nice to be right occasionally :)
Austrian procurement parsimony is almost legendary, I'd concur that 1792 are likely to predominate in 1809.
However the existence of 'spare' flags has always puzzled me somewhat, given that there is no regimental association and its 'one flag fits all' one wonders why there would be significant numbers of spares if inhabers are procuring them. Does 'spare' actually mean 'old'? One would expect grenadier battalions to be issued with quality flags not shoddy moth-eaten things from storage.
There appears to be a quantity of ordinarfahne knocking around that get used as and when is needed, the question is why would there be any?
It's all a bit odd.
I've been continuing my conversation with Dave Hollins about the flags. He is "inclined to agree that there were not that many 1806 around in 1809". As for procurement times, he points out that "it took ten years to issue the 1798 musket and about six to issue the shakos". So, if we apply that kind of time scale to flags, we wouldn't expect to see Pattern 1806 in general use until 1812 to 1816 but I concede that is no more than speculation.
As for the war-time grenadier battalions' flags, apparently "there were some kept in the depots for the grenadiers". Not sure who paid for them though or how many were held. There were also a lot of surplus ordinarfahnen after the reduction of flags in 1808. Some of these may have been modified Pattern 1780, which was done by the simple, and economic, expedient of altering the J to an F, so anything from 16 to 28 years old in 1808 but some, presumably, still serviceable.
When you look at the custom in other countries, flags were only changed when there was a need. We find that, generally speaking, they were not replaced until they wore out, or were captured. Would the Austrians be any different?
I will persevere with the ordinarfahnen/grenadier battalions question and see where it leads.
Quote from: Zippee on 17 June 2020, 09:19:04 AM
It's nice to be right occasionally :)
Austrian procurement parsimony is almost legendary, I'd concur that 1792 are likely to predominate in 1809.
However the existence of 'spare' flags has always puzzled me somewhat, given that there is no regimental association and its 'one flag fits all' one wonders why there would be significant numbers of spares if inhabers are procuring them. Does 'spare' actually mean 'old'? One would expect grenadier battalions to be issued with quality flags not shoddy moth-eaten things from storage.
There appears to be a quantity of ordinarfahne knocking around that get used as and when is needed, the question is why would there be any?
It's all a bit odd.
Wasn't the answer contained in a very early post? Austrian Battalions had two flags per Battalion from 1792-1805, and one thereafter. So after 1805 50% of the existing model 1792 flags, all ordinarfahnen, would be surplus to requirements. Or have I missed something as usual?
Yes, pretty much. See also Dave Hollins article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Imperial_Austrian_Army_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars. The date of the reduction to a single flag per battalion was indeed 1805, not 1808 as in my post above. The flags presented to Landwehr/Freiwillige in 1809 would probably have been Pattern 1792, surplus to requirements after 1805, although there were also a few Pattern 1806 presented to these units, the origin of which is not clear to me at the moment.
While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.
I've gone with White with Red for my Generals. The 2nd man on the command stand white trousers, ie standard dress. Hungarian officers (not generals) white/blue.
I'm probably wrong.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 17 June 2020, 05:42:56 PM
While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.
Hi, more or less I think. General officers (Generalmajor upwards) white with red breeches, field and junior officers (Oberst and below) the uniform of their regiment. The officers' uberrock, what we'd call a frock coat I think, was grey, really quite dark verging on charcoal in all the pics I've seen. If I remember correctly the colour was termed wolfgrau for what that is worth.
Thanks chaps, appreciate it.
Quote from: mollinary on 17 June 2020, 10:46:36 AM
Wasn't the answer contained in a very early post? Austrian Battalions had two flags per Battalion from 1792-1805, and one thereafter. So after 1805 50% of the existing model 1792 flags, all ordinarfahnen, would be surplus to requirements. Or have I missed something as usual?
Well no not quite but sort of. The change to a single flag in 1805 was temporary and as the number of battalions increased merely absorbed the existing flags (if there were numerous 'spares' why the need to reduce to a single flag?)
The reduction to a single flag was in 1808 post the 1806 redesign, perhaps to make the resupply cheaper? Anyway lots of flags were lost in 1805 so we can't really confirm a significant surplus created by this reduction. I can also imagine that lost flags would more likely to be replaced by new designs and serviceable 1792 flags being retained - both as a cost saving and as a not-so-subtle statement of "we didn't lose ours"
But none of that matters as we are still supposed to believe in a surplus of ordinarfahne to equip the combined grenadiers prior to 1805 - and it is described as a surplus flag (although that may be a repeating misquote from some secondary citation. I note JC quotes DH without using the term but it's still not "the grenadiers' flags were kept at depot until required"). I'd quite understand that the grenadier flag was retained at depot until the battalions were formed in time of war but I doubt I'd describe that as a surplus flag.
Austria is legendary for its parsimony but also seems to be the only nation with surplus flags lying around in case of need, weird.
Perhaps they were used to losing them.... ;)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 17 June 2020, 05:42:56 PM
While I've got your attention...
Colonels, brigadiers and divisional generals in the infantry...
The Pendraken mounted Hungarian officer is on his coat, brown on the website, is that universal or just artillery?
Senior generals white with red trousers etc?
Cavalry I'll ask another time.
Ta in advance.
The Hungarian colonel - go with a grey coat, keep brown for your artillery, as you say.
www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost127.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost127.htm)
Generals -
www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost157.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/1809blogpost157.htm)
Senior officers could also wear grey over-trousers - see the link to Post 139.
Yes, as I understand it there were two reductions to a single flag per battalion. The first in June 1805, with a return to the two flags per battalion in the interim in December 1806, and a second reduction in 1808. Hope I've got that clear, in my own mind as much as anybody else's. The flags no longer required were held at the depot or, as suggested elsewhere, in chapels or churches at the seats of the inhaber. This pretty much the usual thing to do with military artefacts of this kind. But, where they were held is not important.
Those taken out of use in 1805 would, we can reasonably assume, be taken back into use in 1806, and could also be used to replace flags lost between October and December 1805. Those taken out of use as a result of the 1808 reduction would have been available in 1809.
Working out how many ordinarfahnen might be available, potentially, in 1809 is a matter, I think, of arithmetic.
Prior to the reduction to one flag per battalion in 1808, I think we agree that a regiment had one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen. One leibfahne and one ordinarfahne for the 1. or Leibbataillon, two ordinarfahnen for the 2. or Oberstsbataillon and two ordinarfahnen for the 3. or Oberstlieutenantsbataillon.
In 1808 there were, according to the list I have in front of me, 63 regiments. Assuming all had a full complement of one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen (I concede they might not) and that each returned three ordinarfahnen, retaining just two, one for the second and one for the third battalion, I calculate that comes, in theory, to a maximum 189 ordinarfahnen that were surplus to requirements.
Even if you assume that the losses at Ulm (45 of all kinds) and Austerlitz (?) were made good from this figure, it is still going to leave a substantial number available in 1809.
A similar reduction, resulting in eagles and flags that were no longer required, happened in France. It is not a unique occurrence and these kinds of artefacts are not usually thrown away.
As for what happened with grenadier battalions before 1805, I have no idea I'm afraid.
Thank you gentlemen.
Quote from: John Cook on 18 June 2020, 02:07:22 PM
Yes, as I understand it there were two reductions to a single flag per battalion. The first in June 1805, with a return to the two flags per battalion in the interim in December 1806, and a second reduction in 1808. Hope I've got that clear, in my own mind as much as anybody else's. The flags no longer required were held at the depot or, as suggested elsewhere, in chapels or churches at the seats of the inhaber. This pretty much the usual thing to do with military artefacts of this kind. But, where they were held is not important.
Those taken out of use in 1805 would, we can reasonably assume, be taken back into use in 1806, and could also be used to replace flags lost between October and December 1805. Those taken out of use as a result of the 1808 reduction would have been available in 1809.
Working out how many ordinarfahnen might be available, potentially, in 1809 is a matter, I think, of arithmetic.
Prior to the reduction to one flag per battalion in 1808, I think we agree that a regiment had one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen. One leibfahne and one ordinarfahne for the 1. or Leibbataillon, two ordinarfahnen for the 2. or Oberstsbataillon and two ordinarfahnen for the 3. or Oberstlieutenantsbataillon.
In 1808 there were, according to the list I have in front of me, 63 regiments. Assuming all had a full complement of one leibfahne and five ordinarfahnen (I concede they might not) and that each returned three ordinarfahnen, retaining just two, one for the second and one for the third battalion, I calculate that comes, in theory, to a maximum 189 ordinarfahnen that were surplus to requirements.
Even if you assume that the losses at Ulm (45 of all kinds) and Austerlitz (?) were made good from this figure, it is still going to leave a substantial number available in 1809.
A similar reduction, resulting in eagles and flags that were no longer required, happened in France. It is not a unique occurrence and these kinds of artefacts are not usually thrown away.
As for what happened with grenadier battalions before 1805, I have no idea I'm afraid.
That seems plausible, but just to add some numbers in:
In 1793 there are 57 IR plus 2 garrison regiments (5 & 6) with an establishment of 3 battalions (4 in Hungarian regts, 2 in the garrisons) each with 2 flags and at least 1 "spare" for use by the grenadier companies if they are the senior regiment of the combined battalion. I have no idea how many flags the garrison regts had but the 17 Grenz IR (2 or 3 battalions each) each have 1 leibfahne and 1 (or 2) ordinarfahne issued (officially not be carried on the field - again no idea if that was actually the case).
In 1798 the 4th battalions of the Hungarian regts are combined to establish IR 60, 61 & 62 so all 60 IR now have 3 battalions (shouldn't impact the flag ration, although presumably we now have the need for 3 more leibfahne)
In 1805 a single flag is issued to each battalion in the new 5 battalion organisation - so we have at least 2 "spare" ordinafahne in depot but this is a very temporary thing
In 1806 things revert to 'normal' so three battalions with 2 flags and at least 1 "spare" for all 60 IR, plus the garrison battalions plus the GIR allocation (which by 1807 appears to be 1 ordinarfahne per battalion, don't know what happened to the leibfahne, re-assigned perhaps?)
In 1808 the allocation is reduced to 1 flag per IR battalion, in theory that should produce 180 "spare" ordinarfahne in addition to the 60 "spare" grenadier flags - so a max of some 240 give or take (maybe the GIR gave up their leibfahne for spare ordinarfahne at some point)
From that we deduct losses from all campaigns (surely not more than 1 per regiment when averaged I would think) and add the new flags decreed in 1806 and issued prior to mobilisation in 1809
In 1809 we have in addition to the 60 IR and 17 GIR the 17 grenadier battalions in I & II Reserve Corps plus 2 others, so that accounts for 19 "spare" grenadier flags
There were something like 70 odd landwehr battalions raised that I'm aware of so that's another 70+ "spares"
Then there are friecorps and units like the EKL (6 battalions) - some of these may have carried individual state flags, some may not have had any as jager equivalents but lets assume they got a "spare" and call it another dozen or so.
All-in-all that doesn't ad up to much more than 100 allocated "spares" - it would seem highly likely that even taking losses into account there would be more than enough spare flags from the 1808 reduction to account for that allocation.
Then there's the Insurrection troops - I have little info on them and no idea if they were issued flags or not nor in what numbers but I don't think they would have depleted stocks judging by this accounting (rough and ready as it is) or at least I don't think they would care if they had no Austrian flag to carry :)
Flags added, now I've got to edge them, tanned Austrians and their beautiful vandyke edge designs...
8)
I find a black sharpie does the job - I do the edge after cutting and before folding/gluing, it's a tad harder once added and curled into shape ;)
I carefully apply a very thin amount of paint to the edge of the flag when fixed in place but one technique which I have yet to try and recommended by at least one of the flag suppliers is to paint the opposite side edges of the flag before folding and fixing to the figure. Has anyone tried that and with what success?
Not tried that method - but it sounds only good for misaligned halves, rather than the cut top edges. I find painting the edges of the flags once in position pretty easy, but I don't go for too creative a set of folds for the flag.
My first efforts:-
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,19881.msg304685/topicseen.html#new