How many flags in an 1809 Austrian Infantry Regiment

[hammurabi70]

Not so sure of  that.  in some parts of the world its enough to make you a prime target, for some very unsavoury characters and thier even more unsavoury habits

True. If you want to travel in safety get a New Zealand passport. An American passport was worth £10,000 because of the demand to get into the USA. At least that was the case a quarter of a century ago when I was in international business.

[John Cook]

i assume the reference is to TMP where the Napoleonic Boards are notoriously bitchy and regularly descend into scholarly handbag scuffles between obstinate opinionists.

Dave used to insert his valuable and knowledgeable comments but like many has been driven away by the unfriendly response (admittedly he could also be somewhat terse at times)

I do not know him ersonally but I'm familiar enough with his work to accept his opinion on most matters Austrian as more than good enough for wargames

Thanks for that, I thought it might be.  I'm not very good with 'coded' message   The problem was really down to one person for whom the secondary sources, he approved of, were the fount of all knowledge and wisdom, and what was seen as the biased attitude of the person who owns and moderates the site.  I think Dave just became exasperated, as did several other people.  I stopped using TMP many years ago for much the same reason as he did.  Using it became a thoroughly unpleasant experience too often.  I take a look from time to time and nothing much has changed - it still seems to be just as you describe.   

[Last Hussar]

Its a good place for specific info, but they are a bugger for dismissing experts

[fred.]

I stopped visiting TMP a good few years ago, and am much happier for it.

Old topics occasionally come up in google searches, and I sometimes peruse them but will nearly always choose another source if one is available.

[Last Hussar]

They can be good for rules queries. It when you have a title "Question about [rules]' and people post to say "I've never played these."

[mollinary]

TMP is still not a bad place to ask questions, and I also visit to try and share my limited expertise with people who ask for help. Fortunately, most of the time, I stay clear of the Napoleonic fora!

[Zippee]

I still visit but no longer bother to post.

Amongst the noise there remains some very valuable information that emerges from time to time but the number of contributors worth listening to has dropped away markedly.

[John Cook]

I still visit but no longer bother to post.

Amongst the noise there remains some very valuable information that emerges from time to time but the number of contributors worth listening to has dropped away markedly.

Exactly.  Such a shame really.  The same thing happened with the now defunct Napoleon Series Forum. 

[John Cook]

I asked Dave Hollins about Austrian flags.  He said that "Flags, like the helmet/shako question, keep coming round"...."it is a case of little scraps here and there, so the subject needs regular updating." 

His source for the Pattern 1804 colours not being issued is Dr. F Kaindl's, Von den gemalten zu den gewebten Feldzeichen (Schriften des Heeresgeschichtlichesmuseum in Wien) Vol.4 pp. 39–49, 1969) but he points out there are at least two surviving examples plus three standards known to have been issued to the cavalry.

He goes on to say that the regimental history of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 4 is the source for the new colours being presented and as the date, June 1806, precedes the decree establishing the Pattern 1806, November 1806, the logic of it is that these would have been Pattern 1804.   As the Wiener Hausregiment it is also possible to speculate that IR Nr 4 it would have been amongst the first to received the Pattern 1806.
 
In addition it is known that three Pattern 1804 standards were presented to three Hussar regiments, one of which was Nr7, because they were included in the catalogue of the 1909 Aspern anniversary exhibition (Katalog der Erzherzog Carl Ausstellung zur Jahrhundertfeier der Schlacht bei Aspern. Items 223/72-4). He also points out that no examples of the Pattern 1804, beyond those mentioned, are known. 

The article here also states that only the Ordinarfahnen were affected by the Pattern 1804 changes.  https://austria-forum.org/af/Wissenssammlungen/Essays/Geschichte/Kaisertum_Österreich_1804

My interpretation of all this is that as none were captured, and none have been preserved, it tends to suggest that few were presented.  All the colours captured by the French are, I understand, Pattern 1792, some of which were taken quite late in the Napoleonic period.  So, it is clear that the Pattern 1792 remained in use and either units with Pattern 1806 colours managed to avoid loosing them, or fewer Pattern 1806 were in use too. 

So, for 1809, the choice is clear.  Either Pattern 1792 or Pattern 1806.  But, identifying which unit carried which pattern is not possible to say, at the moment.  Rigo and Charrie in their plate on Austrian colours provide a list of which pattern, they think, was carried by regiments which formed the Austrian Corps that went to Russia in 1812.  Dave tells me that there is also a list in the Austrian Kriegsarchiv, the result of research in the 1980s, which has yet to be exploited.

That is it for the moment.  I'll pass on anything else if and when I get it.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Wow, great source, thank you.

[mollinary]

Brilliant, John, many thanks! Not my specialist subject, but I love researching flags, and it is a joy to see sources being quoted rather than the same old wargamers' folklore being churned out. Bravo!   

[Last Hussar]

1804 still prettier than the '06.

[John Cook]

I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with the Austrians, though.  Mainly because I don't like all that white.  I'd tend towards the Pattern 1792 if I ever did an 1809 project..  

[Zippee]

As 'spare' orinarfahne were issued to grenadiers and landwehr and suchlike, it's not unlikely that many of these would continue to be 1792 pattern - might explain the captured items.

Although regiments being what they are it'd be no surprise that some held on to existing examples as long as possible - especially if the inhaber had to fund them! Let alone commission and pay for spares to give to landwehr ...

[John Cook]

I think you are right.  Almost certainly Pattern 1792 in the main.  Based on what we know about IR4 and its Pattern 1804 presentations, the flash to bang time from the order to procure flags and presentation to units would appear to be at least 15 months.  We know that 45 units lost flags at Ulm alone (I'm not sure what was lost at Austerlitz) because these trophies were used to decorate Napoleon's tomb.  IR4 is also the only unit known to have received the Pattern 1804 and the Pattern 1806 was ordered in December which, presumably, would have stopped any procurement of the Pattern 1804.  So, it would appear possible that the units which lost flags in 1805 were still waiting for them to be replaced in, around, mid 1808 at the earliest.  We also know that in 1808 flags were reduced to one per battalion, so we might further speculate that the surplus Pattern 1792 flags might well have been given to the units still without flags.  I don't really know enough about Austrian procurement.  Was it a state responsibility or that of the colonel?  Not sure.  I also don't know what the policy was with older patterns.  Were they replaced with newer patterns as a whole (like British colours were with the Act of Union in 1800) or when they used until they wore out?  My thought at the moment is that the Pattern 1792 probably predominated in 1809, with a few Pattern 1806 and no Pattern 1804 at all.