I'm glad to see there will be two minutes silence at 11.00am today, plus some other commemorations to mark VE Day, which will be more muted than we might have liked due to the lockdown. I hope there will be something similar to mark VJ Day and the end of the War. We will remember them.
Quote from: Steve J on 08 May 2020, 05:40:12 AM
I'm glad to see there will be two minutes silence at 11.00am today, plus some other commemorations to mark VE Day, which will be more muted than we might have liked due to the lockdown. I hope there will be something similar to mark VJ Day and the end of the War. We will remember them.
+1
+2
Cheers - Phil
+3
And me !
Same here!
Don't forget it's also the Nation's Toast at 3pm https://www.veday75.org/get-involved/nations-toast/
I'll be celebaring in the garden with 1940's music played on a 1930's gramophone. :D
Faugh A Ballagh ! :-bd :-bd
Some of the ASDA staff were dressed up as Land Army, which was pretty cool, despite them getting very little notice. Cheered everyone up whilst the in the now normal queue to get in.
We joined in with the National Toast this afternoon https://grahamsgaming.blogspot.com/2020/05/ve-day-national-toast.html
My dad phoned me in great excitement last night. He's 94. He had discovered a letter sent by him from London, VE Day 1945, to his girlfriend in Edinburgh. The War was to continue for him as he was off in a matter of days to hostilities in the East to work in Intelligence, intercepting Japanese messages and sending them back to Bletchley Park. However with a 48-hour pass granted to celebrate VE Day, he did so by climbing the railings of Buckingham Palace and cheering the King and Queen as they appeared on the balcony at least three times. He was also involved in Howard Marshall's outside broadcast from London, and then went to a party with a Captain from the famous Phantom regiment, the special reconnaissance unit that actor David Niven was so proud to be a member of.
Nearer home, my dad's girlfriend's reply was that VE Day celebrations in Edinburgh were somewhat muted until the evening due to recent activity by German U-Boats in the Firth of Forth. It's easy to believe that a small corner of the world such as the one I live in now was far away and remote from the hostilities of the war in Europe. However, U-Boats were still destroying shipping in the Firth of Forth up to the last moments of the war and also, quite remarkably, houses on the next street were damaged in the first Luftwaffe air raid on Great Britain during a rooftop dog fight. The German pilots that were shot down and killed during that daring daylight raid were buried in the local cemetery. They were the first enemy casualties of the war to be buried on British soil.
I remember my boys' excitement when they learned that the flats on the other side of the street, the gardens behind, the flats their best friends lived in, a chunk of roadway and a further set of flats had been hit by a stick of bombs jettisoned by a German bomber that was being pursued by one of the Spitfires based on the banks of the Forth to protect both the Rosyth dockyard/ naval base and the shipping on the River Forth.
That evening, after the evening meal, the three of us had to stroll round to the point in Marchmont Crescent where you could see the repaired stonework on the facing of one of the buildings.
It is a tad disturbing that quite a lot of people believe "this" celebration is one that marks the end of WW2.
No. Not quite.
Geoff
Ps - my dad was a signaller on a corvette on D-day. He never really saw action other than that. At the top end of our village (last time I looked, 30+ years ago) you could still see the dip in the ground that was his slit trench when he was in the Home Guard.
In late 1944 his brother won the Military Medal as his unit was one of those trying to get through to Arnhem.
Whenever I watch A Bridge Too Far I always wonder "where's Uncle George..."? You'd have thought the reality would have sunk in by now.
Yes, Geoff, even today "The Forgotten Army" lives up to it's nickname :(
I remember attending the International Model Fair at RAF Haltob, quite a few years ago, and one veteran from Fleet AIR Arm had bult a Sunderland Flying boat from scratch in brass. it was superb.
Talking to him he said he flew several missions a week from his call up to the end of the war hunting U boats. He said they "never saw a single U-boat" to depth charge. they most exciting sortie was when they got strafed by a German fighter at the limit of his range, so he did one pass firing at them then flew off.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 May 2020, 07:42:22 PM
Yes, Geoff, even today "The Forgotten Army" lives up to it's nickname :(
Yes even in by many wargames manufacturers who produce WW2.
Well I observed the two minutes silence, but didn't know about the toast bit. So neighbours had a bit of an afternoon tea party and were singing songs, which was good. We just watched the Queen's message which we thought was spot on and then sang along to 'We'll meet again' as we watched the nice montage of people singing bits of the song.
I explained to our daughter that the War didn't end until August '45, which she vaguely remembered. So many people think it finished today and as mentioned at the start of this topic, I hope we do commemorate the end of the War. At least the Queen mentioned in her speech that the fighting was still going on in the Far East.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 May 2020, 07:42:22 PM
Yes, Geoff, even today "The Forgotten Army" lives up to it's nickname :(
I had hoped that Captain Tom's exploits had fixed that.
Spoke to a young man today who was under the impression that the Far East Theatre in WW2 and the Korean War were the same thing. He was by no means stupid or uneducated but his schools coverage of WW2 had been restricted to The Blitz, The Land Army, Bevan Boys and rationing, as far as I can see.
I don't know, education hasn't been the same since they stopped teaching everyone Latin :D
I know I've already told you about one of my 'staff' at the EE asked whether Hitler was in WWII. X_X
I HATED Latin !
Cheers - Naughtius Maximus.
Delivering an Access course in History I was informed by one of the students that I had mis-spelled Russia, I'put a P in front ;)
X_X
Good grief..Most of you know that my knowledge of 'historical facts' can be written on the back of a postage stamp....But...Stroll on. ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
To be fair she did get rather better quite quickly - and passed the course.
Quote from: Orcs on 08 May 2020, 07:48:47 PM
Yes even in by many wargames manufacturers who produce WW2.
It's not the one true scale but Peter Pig do a superb 15mm 14th Army range. Which has tempted me for years...
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 May 2020, 10:12:21 PM
Spoke to a young man today who was under the impression that the Far East Theatre in WW2 and the Korean War were the same thing. He was by no means stupid or uneducated but his schools coverage of WW2 had been restricted to The Blitz, The Land Army, Bevan Boys and rationing, as far as I can see.
I don't know, education hasn't been the same since they stopped teaching everyone Latin :D
I think being a wargamer gives one a very different perspective and even base of knowledge - as kid in school I caused outrage in one lesson by correcting the teacher on the Opium War not being about the Chinese selling opium.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 May 2020, 10:12:21 PM
Spoke to a young man today who was under the impression that the Far East Theatre in WW2 and the Korean War were the same thing. He was by no means stupid or uneducated but his schools coverage of WW2 had been restricted to The Blitz, The Land Army, Bevan Boys and rationing, as far as I can see.
I don't know, education hasn't been the same since they stopped teaching everyone Latin :D
At the (socially distanced) street party yesterday, most of the attendees were retirees, of which I was the youngest (!), yet I was the only one who seemed to be informed about WWII against the Japanese and the forthcoming VJ Day. Everyone else seemed to think it was all about peace on 8 May 1945 [wonder why it is V
E and not just V?!!].
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 09 May 2020, 10:37:23 AM
I think being a wargamer gives one a very different perspective and even base of knowledge - as kid in school I caused outrage in one lesson by correcting the teacher on the Opium War not being about the Chinese selling opium.
Yes. I was surprised that when I attended BRNC for my officer training that
I was the only one who had heard of, and knew about, the raid on TARANTO.
Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!
Quote from: toxicpixie on 09 May 2020, 03:03:52 PM
Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!
Difficult to imagine, as 'Taranto Night' dinners are not unknown in naval establishments!
I guess you only go to them AFTER you graduate?!
I suspect part of the vaugness of knowledge comes as a result of a disconnect from distance in time. For many of you, you have parents and grandparents who took part in the war. For me, my grandparents were young children during the war. For younger generations they may have no living familial connection to it at all.
I suspect a lot of what people know now comes from movies, video games and popular media. For a long time I always thought of the Pacific Theatre as the American war. I'd very little concept of the British involvement (at least beyond the River Kwai). It was only relatively recently I learned more about it from a British rather than American and Japanese perspective.
In school I wasn't really taught the world wars in detail. I remember doing a bit on the first world war in primary school and visiting a museum (Somme Heritage Centre outside Belfast) and we also visited a WW2 museum (Eden Camp in York) on a school trip and talked a little about the second a few years after, but at secondary school it wasn't really touched on. It was reserved for GCSE History, which I chose not to do because I enjoyed history far too much.
So most of what I'd know came from documentaries or a bit of reading after playing a game or watching a film set in the period. Or in more recent times active self learning on the period. But most people won't have the interest in doing that. Even as a history lover it's taken me a while to get into it as I just wasn't that interested in 20th century history for a long time. It's also an immensely complex period to wrap your head around if you're starting from only a basic understanding of what happened.
Over time as those who remember the war first hand sadly pass on, the disconnect will become all the greater. I mentioned this to my wife whose knowledge of the wars is fairly vague and her reasoning is that those who fought the war did so so that future generations wouldn't have to know the horrors they went through and while it's important not to forget what they did, many of them wouldn't want future generations to spend a lot of time thinking about the war and rather be living their lives as best they could and making the most of the freedoms that they fought and died for.
I'm sure many others share a similar sentiment.
Even in much of the coverage on Friday the focus seemed to be a lot more on the current situation and trying to equate it to the experience in the wars rather than the details of the history. But maybe that's what is important to a culture, the experiences, emotions and social impact that resonates through to the present day, more than what date the war ended or what battle was fought where, and to each generation it becomes more of a distant memory. There'll always be history nerds and scholars about to study the details, but for the average person all that is important to them is that the war did end, not knowing the actual dates.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 09 May 2020, 03:03:52 PM
Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!
They were mainly a bunch of 18 year-olds just out of school. I was shocked by the general ignorance of (nautical) history most displayed. In my class of 50 when the lecturer mentioned Taranto I was the only one who knew what he was talking about and you can imagine how stunned I was by such a level of ignorance. I had not done any twentieth century history at school and perhaps they had not. I had been a wargamer so had a lot more knowledge; we easily forget how little people know of history, even, or especially, military history. The vast majority have no interest and perhaps that is a good thing. Was it not Rommel who said that if the measure of a man is only his ability as a soldier then civilisation is lost.
I suspect much of what you say is true mmcv but ...
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
And you can't learn from a history you don't remember.
"It was reserved for GCSE History, which I chose not to do because I enjoyed history far too much." I get that :)
For "Higher" History - similar to "A" level in England and Wales - the curriculum chosen for our school covered UK history from 1816 - 1913 and Scottish history from 1358 - 1603.
There were many possible curriculum choices schools could opt for and the exam paper covered them all.
I answered questions on the boundaries of the Roman Empire, the armies of Gustavus Adophus and the Code Napoleon.
Despite my history teacher's obvious belief that his star pupil (his words, not mine) had gone mad, crashed and burned I got an "A" grade, the highest possible. I think he awarded me the schools History Prize out of sheer relief :)
Being a child of the 1960's, I was raised on a heady mix of 'Biggles', (who did NOT 'Time Travel' >:( ) ,and 'The Victor' comic...a publication much superior to the competition... {Matt Braddock, Killer Kennedy and Sgt. Miller and the back page of real VC stories...vs Cpt. Hurricane and his 'Ragin' Furies' ?) Lol! ;)
A little later, I was able to get war books from the 'Adult' section of my library...(Sadly they did not have 'That' stuff or my 'education' would have been Much Improved ;) !!!). As a result, I saw some of the horrors of warfare, (in photographic form), quite early. Having seen, for instance, a 'fried' German being 'hooked' out of his tank turret, in much later years, pics of the 1st Gulf War did not shock, just sadden...the Sun's "Gotchca!" evoked anger...and some very stupid people singing "Hey, Mr. Taliban" , drunk in a British Pub, disgust. :( I rather think those early influences were a good thing, not the PC view at all. War is not 'Heroic' but it happens, and such knowledge can help people have to ''get real' and 'accept' current fears like terrorism or Covid19. :(
Also, as a kid, my favourite record was a 45 (!!!) of 'Real Aeroplane Sounds', including 'a dogfight over the English Channel' !!! My favourite movie was 'Battle Of Britain' ! Now, I just have to hear 'THAT' engine sound and I am transfixed, looking for the Spitfire...though I always had a quirky preference for Hurricanes! :o (I doubt whether I can tell the difference between a Merlin and a Griffon...but I don't care! LOL! :) I find it rather sad that I can see a young Dad and son, (Mum is excused!) , totally oblivious to Their History flying overhead...Oh well, I am an older bloke! :(
The VE day celebrations are a good thing...just maybe, they will install a curiosity in the young...it was not just a 'street party'...but, for some, an end to fear and loss for a time. There are , sadly, very few of that generation left, and some, like my Ma, cannot remember much...
I rather think that the remembrance of fortitude in adversity may be needed in the future... but, WTH, I am glad some had 'enjoyment of the day'! :)
Very true, Hammurabi (and possibly Rommel!).
Quote from: Ithoriel on 09 May 2020, 11:57:06 PM
I suspect much of what you say is true mmcv but ...
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
And you can't learn from a history you don't remember.
Oh I 100% agree, I think it's important to take the lessons from history and not forget them, and I think as a culture we generally have. Barring a few fringe elements, most people know about Hitler and the Holocaust and the Atom Bomb and what they stand for. There is enough cultural awareness around the war that you can reference aspects of it and people will understand, even if they don't know details. Even if much of that comes from popular media, e.g. a lot more people understand what "Dunkirk Spirit" is after the film came out.
One thing I do think more should be done of is teaching the stories of history, the narrative and the human elements, rather than getting bogged down in detail. I know that put me off a lot in school. I remember one thing we did was The Normans and the conquest of Ireland and it was over 15 years later that I realised it's actually quite an interesting period in history but was always put off it after school.
I know there are many teachers out there who do try and instill a bit of the interesting bits rather than just facts and figures but I suspect a lot of people had a similar experience of being turned off and seeing history as a bunch of boring dates. I was lucky in that I'd an interest in history, especially ancient history, myself from a young age and it didn't knock that out of me, but for many I can see how they could be permanently put off history. That's why I always try to focus more on telling an interesting story if someone asks about something historical.
I suppose another aspect is modern history has an abundance of information on every detail and aspect of what happened. So it's easier to get sucked into the details and get a bit lost in them, rather than taking in the grand sweep of the story of what happened, then delving deeper into bits that interest you, if they do.
The VE and later VJ day can be a good time to tell those stories and the broader strokes, but no point making people feel stupid that they didn't know this date or that battle. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of doing that, but it's an easy trap to fall in when you've a vast store of knowledge and others profess ignorance.
Quote from: mmcv on 10 May 2020, 09:14:44 AM
Oh I 100% agree, I think it's important to take the lessons from history and not forget them, and I think as a culture we generally have. Barring a few fringe elements, most people know about Hitler and the Holocaust and the Atom Bomb and what they stand for. There is enough cultural awareness around the war that you can reference aspects of it and people will understand, even if they don't know details. Even if much of that comes from popular media, e.g. a lot more people understand what "Dunkirk Spirit" is after the film came out.
One thing I do think more should be done of is teaching the stories of history, the narrative and the human elements, rather than getting bogged down in detail. I know that put me off a lot in school. I remember one thing we did was The Normans and the conquest of Ireland and it was over 15 years later that I realised it's actually quite an interesting period in history but was always put off it after school.
I know there are many teachers out there who do try and instill a bit of the interesting bits rather than just facts and figures but I suspect a lot of people had a similar experience of being turned off and seeing history as a bunch of boring dates. I was lucky in that I'd an interest in history, especially ancient history, myself from a young age and it didn't knock that out of me, but for many I can see how they could be permanently put off history. That's why I always try to focus more on telling an interesting story if someone asks about something historical.
I suppose another aspect is modern history has an abundance of information on every detail and aspect of what happened. So it's easier to get sucked into the details and get a bit lost in them, rather than taking in the grand sweep of the story of what happened, then delving deeper into bits that interest you, if they do.
The VE and later VJ day can be a good time to tell those stories and the broader strokes, but no point making people feel stupid that they didn't know this date or that battle. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of doing that, but it's an easy trap to fall in when you've a vast store of knowledge and others profess ignorance.
I think the trap of School history is that the learning must be examined.
Lists of Kings, dates of events and "One bloody thing after another" are all easy to examine (and to pass if you're a rote learner).
Issues like beliefs and values of society in general, parties, movements and what drove economic and societal changes are much more interesting but far more difficult to examine at O'level.
Ah, yes! The Dunkirk Spirit.
That moment when our island nation stood all alone against the might of a Europe united under the German yoke.
A plucky island alone .... except for our ally Canada ..... two nations alone, just Britain and Canada .... and Australia ..... Just Britain and her two allies Canada, Australia ... and New Zealand ... three .... three allies Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa .... and the Indian sub-continent ... the Free French ... the Free Poles ...
That moment when a great confederation of nations around the world stood against the fascists!
:D :D :D
And thanked most of them by dumping them in the sewer afterwards.
And don't forget the vast amounts of gear flowing cash on the nail into the UK from America - the Army's deficit in weapons was
Made good in about a week by US shipments. They just didn't want non-standard stuff so the Home Guard got massive numbers of auto-rifles, Light and Medium MGs and SMGs - ironically making them one of the most heavily armed auto-fire formations in the world!
Presaged the Volkssturm five years early, and is now virtually mythologised away as old men with broom handles shouting "bang" :/
Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 May 2020, 12:25:04 PM
And don't forget the vast amounts of gear flowing cash on the nail into the UK from America - the Army's deficit in weapons was
Made good in about a week by US shipments. They just didn't want non-standard stuff so the Home Guard got massive numbers of auto-rifles, Light and Medium MGs and SMGs - ironically making them one of the most heavily armed auto-fire formations in the world!
Presaged the Volkssturm five years early, and is now virtually mythologised away as old men with broom handles shouting "bang" :/
Talking of non-standard weapons ... they have my favourite WW2 British unit .... our only armoured train!
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 10 May 2020, 12:01:37 PM
I think the trap of School history is that the learning must be examined.
Lists of Kings, dates of events and "One bloody thing after another" are all easy to examine (and to pass if you're a rote learner).
Issues like beliefs and values of society in general, parties, movements and what drove economic and societal changes are much more interesting but far more difficult to examine at O'level.
Very true. When I was at school things tended to be moving towards a more coursework based approach with a mix of exams and more open ended projects contributing to the overall grade. Not sure how well that progressed in the years since and if it did result in a broader approach to learning than just memorising key dates. I'd hope so, but don't know anyone involved in secondary education to ask. Maybe some on this forum are.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 May 2020, 12:08:19 PM
Ah, yes! The Dunkirk Spirit.
That moment when our island nation stood all alone against the might of a Europe united under the German yoke.
A plucky island alone .... except for our ally Canada ..... two nations alone, just Britain and Canada .... and Australia ..... Just Britain and her two allies Canada, Australia ... and New Zealand ... three .... three allies Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa .... and the Indian sub-continent ... the Free French ... the Free Poles ...
That moment when a great confederation of nations around the world stood against the fascists!
:D :D :D
Haha! Yes I suppose there is a lot of that, though my understanding of it was more an idea of people pulling together to face adversity rather than any particular insular nationalistic spirit. That might just be because I'm not a mainlander though so have a slightly different perspective.
I have noted there seems to be more coverage of the broader involvement of allies in recent years, e.g I remember reading a number of articles a little while back about the Poles involvement in the Battle of Britian, as well as many others amongst the allies.
Always good to remember that people from all over were able to work together against adversity when dangerous nationalistic sentiments run high.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 May 2020, 12:35:22 PM
Talking of non-standard weapons ... they have my favourite WW2 British unit .... our only armoured train!
Manned by the Poles for a while..
I once worked with someone who had been educated up to the age of 18 but believed that the Chinese attacked Pearl Harbour and that Russians Atomic bombed Japan. It would be air to say she had a 'broad brush ' approach to history.
When I did my History "O"level it included a term on "The rise of Communist China". I was not looking forward to it, but The History Teacher a Mr Egan really taught it well, and I thoroughly enjoyed it . It did go into the beliefs and reasons for the change quite well.