VE Day

[Techno]

 

Good grief..Most of you know that my knowledge of 'historical facts' can be written on the back of a postage stamp....But...Stroll on. 

Cheers - Phil

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

To be fair she did get rather better quite quickly - and passed the course.

[toxicpixie]

Yes even in by many wargames manufacturers who produce  WW2.

It's not the one true scale but Peter Pig do a superb 15mm 14th Army range. Which has tempted me for years...

[flamingpig0]

Spoke to a young man today who was under the impression that the Far East Theatre in WW2 and the Korean War were the same thing. He was by no means stupid or uneducated but his schools coverage of WW2 had been restricted to The Blitz, The Land Army, Bevan Boys and rationing, as far as I can see.

I don't know, education hasn't been the same since they stopped teaching everyone Latin

I think being a wargamer gives one a very different perspective and even base of knowledge - as kid in school I  caused outrage in one lesson by correcting the teacher on the Opium War not being about the Chinese selling opium.

[hammurabi70]

Spoke to a young man today who was under the impression that the Far East Theatre in WW2 and the Korean War were the same thing. He was by no means stupid or uneducated but his schools coverage of WW2 had been restricted to The Blitz, The Land Army, Bevan Boys and rationing, as far as I can see.

I don't know, education hasn't been the same since they stopped teaching everyone Latin

At the (socially distanced) street party yesterday, most of the attendees were retirees, of which I was the youngest (!), yet I was the only one who seemed to be informed about WWII against the Japanese and the forthcoming VJ Day.  Everyone else seemed to think it was all about peace on 8 May 1945 [wonder why it is VE and not just V?!!].

I think being a wargamer gives one a very different perspective and even base of knowledge - as kid in school I  caused outrage in one lesson by correcting the teacher on the Opium War not being about the Chinese selling opium.

Yes.  I was surprised that when I attended BRNC for my officer training that I was the only one who had heard of, and knew about, the raid on TARANTO.

[toxicpixie]

Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!

[mollinary]

Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!

Difficult to imagine, as 'Taranto Night' dinners are not unknown in naval establishments!

[toxicpixie]

I guess you only go to them AFTER you graduate?!

[mmcv]

I suspect part of the vaugness of knowledge comes as a result of a disconnect from distance in time. For many of you, you have parents and grandparents who took part in the war. For me, my grandparents were young children during the war. For younger generations they may have no living familial connection to it at all.

I suspect a lot of what people know now comes from movies, video games and popular media. For a long time I always thought of the Pacific Theatre as the American war. I'd very little concept of the British involvement (at least beyond the River Kwai). It was only relatively recently I learned more about it from a British rather than American and Japanese perspective.

In school I wasn't really taught the world wars in detail. I remember doing a bit on the first world war in primary school and visiting a museum (Somme Heritage Centre outside Belfast) and we also visited a WW2 museum (Eden Camp in York) on a school trip and talked a little about the second a few years after, but at secondary school it wasn't really touched on. It was reserved for GCSE History, which I chose not to do because I enjoyed history far too much.

So most of what I'd know came from documentaries or a bit of reading after playing a game or watching a film set in the period. Or in more recent times active self learning on the period. But most people won't have the interest in doing that. Even as a history lover it's taken me a while to get into it as I just wasn't that interested in 20th century history for a long time. It's also an immensely complex period to wrap your head around if you're starting from only a basic understanding of what happened.

Over time as those who remember the war first hand sadly pass on, the disconnect will become all the greater. I mentioned this to my wife whose knowledge of the wars is fairly vague and her reasoning is that those who fought the war did so so that future generations wouldn't have to know the horrors they went through and while it's important not to forget what they did, many of them wouldn't want future generations to spend a lot of time thinking about the war and rather be living their lives as best they could and making the most of the freedoms that they fought and died for.

I'm sure many others share a similar sentiment.

Even in much of the coverage on Friday the focus seemed to be a lot more on the current situation and trying to equate it to the experience in the wars rather than the details of the history. But maybe that's what is important to a culture, the experiences, emotions and social impact that resonates through to the present day, more than what date the war ended or what battle was fought where, and to each generation it becomes more of a distant memory. There'll always be history nerds and scholars about to study the details, but for the average person all that is important to them is that the war did end, not knowing the actual dates.

[hammurabi70]

Wait, officer training for the *Navy* no one had heard of Taranto?!

They were mainly a bunch of 18 year-olds just out of school. I was shocked by the general ignorance of (nautical) history most displayed. In my class of 50 when the lecturer mentioned Taranto I was the only one who knew what he was talking about and you can imagine how stunned I was by such a level of ignorance.  I had not done any twentieth century history at school and perhaps they had not. I had been a wargamer so had a lot more knowledge; we easily forget how little people know of history, even, or especially, military history.  The vast majority have no interest and perhaps that is a good thing. Was it not Rommel who said that if the measure of a man is only his ability as a soldier then civilisation is lost.

[Ithoriel]

I suspect much of what you say is true mmcv but ...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

And you can't learn from a history you don't remember.

"It was reserved for GCSE History, which I chose not to do because I enjoyed history far too much." I get that

For "Higher" History - similar to "A" level in England and Wales - the curriculum chosen for our school  covered UK history from 1816 - 1913 and Scottish history from 1358 - 1603.

There were many possible curriculum choices schools could opt for and the exam paper covered them all.

I answered questions on the boundaries of the Roman Empire, the armies of Gustavus Adophus and the Code Napoleon.

Despite my history teacher's obvious belief that his star pupil (his words, not mine) had gone mad, crashed and burned I got an "A" grade, the highest possible. I think he awarded me the schools History Prize out of sheer relief

[Heedless Horseman]

Being a child of the 1960's, I was raised on a heady mix of 'Biggles', (who did NOT 'Time Travel'   ) ,and 'The Victor' comic...a publication much superior to the competition... {Matt Braddock, Killer Kennedy and Sgt. Miller and the back page of real VC stories...vs Cpt. Hurricane and his 'Ragin' Furies' ?) Lol!
A little later, I was able to get war books from the 'Adult' section of my library...(Sadly they did not have 'That' stuff or my 'education' would have been Much Improved !!!). As a result, I saw some of the horrors of warfare, (in photographic form), quite early. Having seen, for instance, a 'fried' German being 'hooked' out of his tank turret, in much later years, pics of the 1st Gulf War did not shock, just sadden...the Sun's "Gotchca!" evoked anger...and some very stupid people singing "Hey, Mr. Taliban" , drunk in a British Pub, disgust.   I rather think those early influences were a good thing, not the PC view at all. War is not 'Heroic' but it happens, and such knowledge can help people have to ''get real' and 'accept' current fears like terrorism or Covid19.  

Also, as a kid, my favourite record was a 45 (!!!) of 'Real Aeroplane Sounds', including 'a dogfight over the English Channel' !!!  My favourite movie was 'Battle Of Britain' ! Now, I just have to hear 'THAT' engine sound and I am transfixed, looking for the Spitfire...though I always had a quirky preference for Hurricanes!    (I doubt whether I can tell the difference between a Merlin and a Griffon...but I don't care! LOL!   I find it rather sad that I can see a young Dad and son, (Mum is excused!) , totally oblivious to Their History flying overhead...Oh well, I am an older bloke!

The VE day celebrations are a good thing...just maybe, they will install a curiosity in the young...it was not just  a 'street party'...but, for some, an end to fear and loss for a time. There are , sadly, very few of that generation left, and some, like my Ma, cannot remember much...
I rather think that the remembrance of fortitude in adversity may be needed in the future... but, WTH, I am glad some had 'enjoyment of the day'!

[toxicpixie]

Very true, Hammurabi (and possibly Rommel!).

[mmcv]

I suspect much of what you say is true mmcv but ...

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

And you can't learn from a history you don't remember.

Oh I 100% agree, I think it's important to take the lessons from history and not forget them, and I think as a culture we generally have. Barring a few fringe elements, most people know about Hitler and the Holocaust and the Atom Bomb and what they stand for. There is enough cultural awareness around the war that you can reference aspects of it and people will understand, even if they don't know details. Even if much of that comes from popular media, e.g. a lot more people understand what "Dunkirk Spirit" is after the film came out.

One thing I do think more should be done of is teaching the stories of history, the narrative and the human elements, rather than getting bogged down in detail. I know that put me off a lot in school. I remember one thing we did was The Normans and the conquest of Ireland and it was over 15 years later that I realised it's actually quite an interesting period in history but was always put off it after school.

I know there are many teachers out there who do try and instill a bit of the interesting bits rather than just facts and figures but I suspect a lot of people had a similar experience of being turned off and seeing history as a bunch of boring dates. I was lucky in that I'd an interest in history, especially ancient history, myself from a young age and it didn't knock that out of me, but for many I can see how they could be permanently put off history. That's why I always try to focus more on telling an interesting story if someone asks about something historical.

I suppose another aspect is modern history has an abundance of information on every detail and aspect of what happened. So it's easier to get sucked into the details and get a bit lost in them, rather than taking in the grand sweep of the story of what happened, then delving deeper into bits that interest you, if they do.

The VE and later VJ day can be a good time to tell those stories and the broader strokes, but no point making people feel stupid that they didn't know this date or that battle. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of doing that, but it's an easy trap to fall in when you've a vast store of knowledge and others profess ignorance.

[steve_holmes_11]

Oh I 100% agree, I think it's important to take the lessons from history and not forget them, and I think as a culture we generally have. Barring a few fringe elements, most people know about Hitler and the Holocaust and the Atom Bomb and what they stand for. There is enough cultural awareness around the war that you can reference aspects of it and people will understand, even if they don't know details. Even if much of that comes from popular media, e.g. a lot more people understand what "Dunkirk Spirit" is after the film came out.

One thing I do think more should be done of is teaching the stories of history, the narrative and the human elements, rather than getting bogged down in detail. I know that put me off a lot in school. I remember one thing we did was The Normans and the conquest of Ireland and it was over 15 years later that I realised it's actually quite an interesting period in history but was always put off it after school.

I know there are many teachers out there who do try and instill a bit of the interesting bits rather than just facts and figures but I suspect a lot of people had a similar experience of being turned off and seeing history as a bunch of boring dates. I was lucky in that I'd an interest in history, especially ancient history, myself from a young age and it didn't knock that out of me, but for many I can see how they could be permanently put off history. That's why I always try to focus more on telling an interesting story if someone asks about something historical.

I suppose another aspect is modern history has an abundance of information on every detail and aspect of what happened. So it's easier to get sucked into the details and get a bit lost in them, rather than taking in the grand sweep of the story of what happened, then delving deeper into bits that interest you, if they do.

The VE and later VJ day can be a good time to tell those stories and the broader strokes, but no point making people feel stupid that they didn't know this date or that battle. Not that I'm accusing anyone here of doing that, but it's an easy trap to fall in when you've a vast store of knowledge and others profess ignorance.

I think the trap of School history is that the learning must be examined.
Lists of Kings, dates of events and "One bloody thing after another" are all easy to examine (and to pass if you're a rote learner).

Issues like beliefs and values of society in general, parties, movements and what drove economic and societal changes are much more interesting but far more difficult to examine at O'level.

[Ithoriel]

Ah, yes! The Dunkirk Spirit.

That moment when our island nation stood all alone against the might of a Europe united under the German yoke.

A plucky island alone .... except for our ally Canada ..... two nations alone, just Britain and Canada .... and Australia ..... Just Britain and her two allies Canada, Australia ... and New Zealand ... three .... three allies Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa .... and the Indian sub-continent ... the Free French ... the Free Poles ...

That moment when a great confederation of nations around the world stood against the fascists!

[FierceKitty]

And thanked most of them by dumping them in the sewer afterwards.

[toxicpixie]

And don't forget the vast amounts of gear flowing cash on the nail into the UK from America - the Army's deficit in weapons was
Made good in about a week by US shipments. They just didn't want non-standard stuff so the Home Guard got massive numbers of auto-rifles, Light and Medium MGs and SMGs - ironically making them one of the most heavily armed auto-fire formations in the world!

Presaged the Volkssturm five years early, and is now virtually mythologised away as old men with broom handles shouting "bang" :/

[Ithoriel]

And don't forget the vast amounts of gear flowing cash on the nail into the UK from America - the Army's deficit in weapons was
Made good in about a week by US shipments. They just didn't want non-standard stuff so the Home Guard got massive numbers of auto-rifles, Light and Medium MGs and SMGs - ironically making them one of the most heavily armed auto-fire formations in the world!

Presaged the Volkssturm five years early, and is now virtually mythologised away as old men with broom handles shouting "bang" :/

Talking of non-standard weapons ... they have my favourite WW2 British unit .... our only armoured train!

[mmcv]

I think the trap of School history is that the learning must be examined.
Lists of Kings, dates of events and "One bloody thing after another" are all easy to examine (and to pass if you're a rote learner).

Issues like beliefs and values of society in general, parties, movements and what drove economic and societal changes are much more interesting but far more difficult to examine at O'level.

Very true. When I was at school things tended to be moving towards a more coursework based approach with a mix of exams and more open ended projects contributing to the overall grade. Not sure how well that progressed in the years since and if it did result in a broader approach to learning than just memorising key dates. I'd hope so, but don't know anyone involved in secondary education to ask. Maybe some on this forum are.

Ah, yes! The Dunkirk Spirit.

That moment when our island nation stood all alone against the might of a Europe united under the German yoke.

A plucky island alone .... except for our ally Canada ..... two nations alone, just Britain and Canada .... and Australia ..... Just Britain and her two allies Canada, Australia ... and New Zealand ... three .... three allies Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa .... and the Indian sub-continent ... the Free French ... the Free Poles ...

That moment when a great confederation of nations around the world stood against the fascists!

Haha! Yes I suppose there is a lot of that, though my understanding of it was more an idea of people pulling together to face adversity rather than any particular insular nationalistic spirit. That might just be because I'm not a mainlander though so have a slightly different perspective.

I have noted there seems to be more coverage of the broader involvement of allies in recent years, e.g I remember reading a number of articles a little while back about the Poles involvement in the Battle of Britian, as well as many others amongst the allies.

Always good to remember that people from all over were able to work together against adversity when dangerous nationalistic sentiments run high.