As some will be aware, I am currently working on a later Stuart project, but a forced visit to Bath today allowed me to make a brief visit to an earlier battlesite, that of Lansdown just North of Bath.
Two former good friends found themselves facing off against each other. Sir William Waller MP and Sir Ralph Hopton (possibly an ancestor of my own via my Great Grandfather, who was illegitimate) led the Parliamentary forces and Royalist army respectively. Hopton's army with a large contingent of Cornish troops led by Sir Bevis Grenville was attacking Waller's troops in an attempt to gain control of Bath.
(PHOTO OF INFO BOARD LOCATED ON THE BATTLESITE)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/6bfe05f0c3dbe30cf5fbfefb41bc118f.jpg)
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
The Parliamentary army were well emplaced on the brow of the North facing slope. The modern trees were not present, giving good fields of fire down the valley towards where the Cornish Infantry were forced to ascend.
The first photo tries to show the remains of the emplacements and earthworks built by Waller's army
The second is a view back from the first up the escarpment.
The third is a view down towards the road, which I am assuming probably existed in 1643 as a dirt track used by farm animals.
The final photo is a view roughly along the line of Waller's initial deployments.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/35dfde67457e5f9b8d84a889b596f234.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/563ad40f43bbf31949758d845af7231d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/1ba10f13ac310c8ef473548fff510968.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/add21e9f0883942a73ce5b2bce40f765.jpg)
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Sir Bevis Grenville led his Cornishmen in a desperate attack. When I did basic training with the army reserves, an instructor told us the point of being a soldier was not to die for his country or cause, but to make some other bastard die for his. Waller's men must have carried out terrible execution and caused many many Cornish to die for Charles' cause. However, the ferocious infantry assault, uphill against emplaced infantry did succeed in driving back the Roundhead defenders and the drove them back up the slopes before disaster struck.
At the top of the slope Sir Bevis was cut down by a Parliamentary trooper. He fell from his horse, dead. His manservant and Standard bearer was a giant from Stratton near Bude, Tom Paine (?). He seized Grenville's son and placed him on his father's horse, rallying the faltering and no doubt tired men with the call: " A Grenville commands you yet!" The attack which could have faltered was renewed.
In the 1720s Grenville's grandson, Lord Lansdowne, marked the site with a grand monment which stands on the spot to this day, albeit somewhat battered by the passage of 300 years. It records the event in the terrible battle in which "more officers were killed than men". I think it may be the first war memorial in the country.
Lansdown was a conflicted man. He maintained the family's loyalty to the Stuart dynasty by choosing Jacobite exile in France over loyalty to Hanoverian new comers. This monument was his final act before he left England, and is also a political statement of his choices.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/beeb2fbe92aeb83236d5c572fc652174.jpg)
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Great info, thank you.
The battle raged until darkness. Charge and counter charge failed to decide the matters until the Parliamentary army took refuge behind a stone wall which still stands about 250 yards south of the ridge. The no doubt exhausted Cavaliers took position around where the monument now stands.
An artillery duel commenced causing great casualties. Waller's cannon were positioned in a sheep pound. This again still exists, now sheltering not sheep but a small copse.
PHOTO 1: this is a view of the field across which battle raged, looking from the East end of Waller's holding position back towards the monument. Cavalry ranged across the meadow, including 'Haselrigge's London Lobsters', fully armoured curaissiers closely resembling the knights of 150 years earlier.
PHOTO 2: the actual wall behind which the Parliamentary Infantry sheltered.
PHOTO 3: view across the field towards the Parliamentary position. The sheep pound was on the extreme right. In July 1643 this was the 'killing ground'.
PHOTO 4: a drystone wall bounding the Eastern boundary of the field. I assume this was contemporary.
PHOTO 5: Another view across the field towards the sheep pound
PHOTO 6: within the limitations of my camera phone a close up of the sheep pound. Whilst not visible on this, the gaps made to position the cannon and subsequent rebuilding can be clearly identified.
PHOTO8: contemporary visitor info boards.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/ba05b0333a849dc5fb21aefcf1324b4f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/ca4e8316db134aae0f453adaedae6233.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/42678dcb1ffb6cecd0bfc2165da1acc7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/1c8d9f5531ccd4e2f29f1dfdc941986d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/16bae09d9115dcc30d592d3431842b99.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/ea89b59bae146ad9d62e65a00fbe6301.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/f17796011aa237484295cd6c7a0622b6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/ce1159eb4b4a21b289d615fd65702b1e.jpg)
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Both sides claimed victory. Waller slipped away in the dark, leaving lighted matches on the wall to persuade the Royalists that they had not retreated and stole an advance on Hopton. Dragoons later scouted the positions and reported the ruse. The Royalists abandoned their attempt to take Bath and set off after Waller.
They met again later that month at Roundway Hill in Wiltshire.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
AMENDMENTS: The commander of the Cornish was Bevil Grenvile, not Bevis Grenville. His son was 13, not 16 and his standard bearer was Anthony Payne not Thomas Paine.
The Cornish made 3 assaults on Wallers position but Waller withdrew in good order even moving his cannon back. The Royalist cavalry broke when charged by Haselrigges troops and played no further part in the battle. Grenvile used his pikemen to hold the ridge brow whilst others joined him.
It is very likely Waller deliberately withdrew to provide a perfect killing ground for his own cavalry, given the flight of the Royalist which denuded Hopton of that arm of his forces almost entirely.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Very interesting to see that again as it is over 20 years since I was last there.
A good battlefield to walk with some stunning views nearby. Also of interest is a stone age settlement that looks to be next to where the Parliamentarians took up position behind the stone wall.
Quote from: Steve J on 24 October 2017, 07:58:46 PM
A good battlefield to walk with some stunning views nearby. Also of interest is a stone age settlement that looks to be next to where the Parliamentarians took up position behind the stone wall.
I knew about a Roman pewter works but not the Stone Age settlement, Steve. Whereabouts is it?
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
A good guide which unfortunately I didn't have with me as I had to head to Bath on short notice for a minor domestic emergency is:
John Wroughton
The Battle of Lansdown 1643 An Explorer's Guide
ISBN 978-0-9520249-8-9
The Lansdown Press
I got my copy from the Roman Baths Museum shop a few years back.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Thanks! Enjoyed seeing all the pics and your running commentary. You had done a photoessay of PhilipsNorton some time ago and I'm hoping you'll eventually get to Bridgewater-Westonzoyland. :)
The settlement is shown on the OS Explorer map 155 to the right of the monument. If I've got my grid references right, it is 726703. From memory it is to the left of the gap in the wall as you walk towards the wall from the monument. Hope this helps?
Quote from: Steve J on 25 October 2017, 06:03:26 AM
The settlement is shown on the OS Explorer map 155 to the right of the monument. If I've got my grid references right, it is 726703. From memory it is to the left of the gap in the wall as you walk towards the wall from the monument. Hope this helps?
Thanks! I'll take a dekko.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Quote from: d_Guy on 25 October 2017, 02:52:23 AMThanks! Enjoyed seeing all the pics and your running commentary. You had done a photoessay of PhilipsNorton some time ago and I'm hoping you'll eventually get to Bridgewater-Westonzoyland. :)
Thanks d_guy. I hope so too. This was an opportunist visit as my daughter had suffered a seizure overnight and we'd gone down to Bath to bring her home for a check up ( not a new problem and she is fine though she may have to change her medications. Probably because she's started at Uni and has been ...erm... erratic in her bed times and eating habits in the early days of real adult life!) I needed to stretch my legs after driving 140 miles and before I did the return, so took advantage of the site being en route and decided to post them in case anyone was interested.
As you can likely tell, I was enjoying what the Irish call "soft weather"!
I will certainly do Sedgemoor, probably in the Spring.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
If you go to Google Maps, you can just make out some shapes of buildings on the un-ploughed triangular field. I stopped to take some lunch on my walk in the shelter of the wall that the Parliamentarians used, unaware of the details of the battle at that time. If the weather stays fair I may tempt SWMBO for a walk around the area this weekend :D
Hi
Thanks for the report and photos. Up to 2011 I used to work about 2 miles down the road towards Bath. Here is a very useful site for visiting British battlefields in case anyone is unaware of it: http://www.battlefieldstrust.com/resource-centre/civil-war/battlepageview.asp?pageid=410
Cheers Paul
Thank, very interesting. I must try and stop by the next time I'm in Bath.
There is also a Roman fort next to the Western end of Bath racecourse. Sadly you can't get close to it, but without crops in the field you can see some of it. There is also a deep ditch by the footpath that I've always wondered if it's the substantial remnants of a defensive structure. It is deeper than it needs to be as a pure ditch. The views from nearby are stunning on a good day.
Quote from: T13A on 25 October 2017, 07:49:06 AM
Hi
Thanks for the report and photos. Up to 2011 I used to work about 2 miles down the road towards Bath. Here is a very useful site for visiting British battlefields in case anyone is unaware of it: http://www.battlefieldstrust.com/resource-centre/civil-war/battlepageview.asp?pageid=410
Cheers Paul
Great website! Thank you.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Quote from: Steve J on 25 October 2017, 10:01:59 AM
There is also a Roman fort next to the Western end of Bath racecourse. Sadly you can't get close to it, but without crops in the field you can see some of it. There is also a deep ditch by the footpath that I've always wondered if it's the substantial remnants of a defensive structure. It is deeper than it needs to be as a pure ditch. The views from nearby are stunning on a good day.
I have a friend who is an archaeologist in Bath. I will ask if he knows.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Quote from: Steve J on 25 October 2017, 10:01:59 AM
There is also a Roman fort next to the Western end of Bath racecourse. Sadly you can't get close to it, but without crops in the field you can see some of it. There is also a deep ditch by the footpath that I've always wondered if it's the substantial remnants of a defensive structure. It is deeper than it needs to be as a pure ditch. The views from nearby are stunning on a good day.
My friend tells me he thinks the fort is a misidentification by a Victorian antiquary. He considers it more likely to be a livestock pen.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
An interesting thread. Thanks for posting that (btw, Photo 7?). Waller moving his artillery back during the fight was also illuminating (presume they were not big pieces) as all too often we are told artillery was more or less static during pre-Napoleonic battles, particularly the further back in time one goes. Also, thanks to T13A for the battlefields trust link. Although the first two battles I searched for were not encouraging (Brunanburh unsurprisingly revealed no substantive information and Glen Shiel had not been included at all), it nevertheless looks as if it could be quite a good resource to refer to in future.
:-bd
QuoteMy friend tells me he thinks the fort is a misidentification by a Victorian antiquary. He considers it more likely to be a livestock pen.
Interesting and makes sense as it's a pretty small enclosure.
I have this book and found it to be very useful so far. Worth getting IMHO.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cassells-Battlefields-Britain-Ireland-Richard/dp/0304363332 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cassells-Battlefields-Britain-Ireland-Richard/dp/0304363332)
I was a child in Bromborough, which has often been identified as the site of the battle of Brunanbrugh. Many years ago I remember reading an article about the battle in Miniature Wargames or Wargames Illustrated. The area it described, by the little river Dibbin matched where I had once lived, so I am a bit of a Bromborough supporter for the site of this elusive battle, particularly as the Vikings involved were from Ireland and the Mersey, into which the Dibbin flows, has it's estuary on the Irish Sea and many good places for beaching the types of boats used by the Vikings.
Yeah, it was my impression that the Wirral was the most favoured candidate, location-wise, too and not the Dumfriesshire one highlighted in the battlefields trust website (although, to be fair, they do indicate that one is also speculative and that no-one really knows).
Quote from: Westmarcher on 25 October 2017, 06:16:37 PM
Yeah, it was my impression that the Wirral was the most favoured candidate, location-wise, too and not the Dumfriesshire one highlighted in the battlefields trust website (although, to be fair, they do indicate that one is also speculative and that no-one really knows).
Remember in 1980s a series by Michael Wood, "In Search of the Dark Ages" which talked about the location of the battle. Really fascinating.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Are there any rules anyone recommends for the ECW please?
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Hi
Personally, I like Field of Glory Renaissance, IMHO they give a good 'feel' for the ECW.
Cheers Paul
Weirdly my mates, who play a lot of FoGR, don't rate it for the ECW. They prefer Forlorn Hope, or its derivative, Warre without an Enemie. Personally I'm waiting for the TtS version For King and Parliament.
We have had some successful ECW test games using Baroque
Quote from: Leman on 28 October 2017, 04:02:30 PM
Weirdly my mates, who play a lot of FoGR, don't rate it for the ECW. They prefer Forlorn Hope, or its derivative, Warre without an Enemie. Personally I'm waiting for the TtS version For King and Parliament.
While we have tried a couple of Baroque games, (which have been pretty successful overall) I saw on TMP today that someone is running a trial FK&P game at the Hutt wargaming club here in Wellington in December, so booked that date as I'm keen to see them in action of the table myself.
Before anyone asks Lower Hutt and Upper Hutt are both small cities near Wellington and have no connection with Jabba the Hutt of Starwars fame.
Pizza Hutt?
;D ;D ;D
Anone used "The Kingdom is ours" at all please? Thoughts?
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
One of our group has been playtesting an ECW variant of BBB. Early reports are positive. I should get to try it myself later this month. (In breach of my usual self-imposed avoidance of anything pre-Napoleonic!)
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/
A lovely walk out today saw myself and SWMBO end up on the extreme left flank of the Parliamentarian position. We had hoped to then walk along to the other end of the battlefield, but the weather took a turn for the worse, so we headed back. However, the info board was very useful and we could get a really good view across to where the Royalists advanced from. You can see why this was chosen as a defensive position, as to get to it means a damned hard climb from any direction, even in modern walking boots and not encumbered with any kit.
In just over a weeks time I'm off for a weeks hols, so intend to have a good wander of the battlefield. If the weather is good, I hope to take in Solsbury Hill fort and Hinton Hill fort (again), as they are not too far away.
Quote from: Steve J on 05 November 2017, 02:03:51 PM
A lovely walk out today saw myself and SWMBO end up on the extreme left flank of the Parliamentarian position. We had hoped to then walk along to the other end of the battlefield, but the weather took a turn for the worse, so we headed back. However, the info board was very useful and we could get a really good view across to where the Royalists advanced from. You can see why this was chosen as a defensive position, as to get to it means a damned hard climb from any direction, even in modern walking boots and not encumbered with any kit.
In just over a weeks time I'm off for a weeks hols, so intend to have a good wander of the battlefield. If the weather is good, I hope to take in Solsbury Hill fort and Hinton Hill fort (again), as they are not too far away.
It is amazing that they succeeded in storming that ridge, although Wroughton seems to suggest that Waller may have planned that as the fields behind were perfect for cavalry, where he was stronger than Hopton.
Solsbury Hill, not just a good song but possibly also the location of Badon Hill. Just beyong Lansdown is Dyrham, location of a battle in 577AD between the citizenry of Bath, Cirencester and Gloucester against the advancing Saxons.
Thanks for the add!
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Hinton Hill fort is part of the probable site for the battle of Deorham. Weather looking good next week, so just have to pick a nice day, pack some lunch and get the camera charged :)