Was looking forward to this but ultimately disappointing
Would have liked more info about the personalities involved rather than lots of sonar images etc
Ah well
I don't get channel 4 so obviously didn't see it BUT here is a very recent, quite excellent video published on YouTube. It had superb graphics and a nice collection of photos (not just the usual ones). It is only 24 min but packs in a huge amount of information in a very concise way. Most impressive is the narration (by Jellicoe's Grandson) which is the clearest exposition of the battle I have heard (given the time allowed).
I haven't seen this posted yet so wanted to be sure folks here get to see it before the centenary is upon us:
Thanks for that d Guy - very good indeed :-bd
As Paul mentioned we went in to see a refight of the main fleet action that was being played at the local club using GQ3 yesterday.
As enthusiastic naval gamers we are marking the anniversary of Jutland ourselves next weekend with a refight of Beatty and Hipper's "run to the south" using GQ2 rules, which we find play faster and smoother than the later GQ3 version of the rules.
AAR will follow the game.
Thanks d Guy, a very informative summary :)
I'm looking forward to our "run to the south" next weekend ;)
Excellent - many thanks.
We are going to try for the whole battle in a couple of weeks, using "Jutland" by A&A
IanS
Yeah, agreed - that was very good d_guy. The 'Battle of Jutland C4' programme was also good but focused more on the wrecks of Beatty's battlecruisers so, in that respect, as Fenton says, disappointing for anyone looking at the title 'Battle of Jutland' and expecting a more comprehensive account of the battle itself. In the C4 programme, Beatty did not come out of it as well as Jellicoe, with Beatty being accused of later altering the record when he got Jellicoe's job to make him look better.
Fenton - got a passing look at HMS Caroline when I was in Belfast on Friday but missed out on the Royal Ulster Rifles museum because it was shut on the Saturday (d'oh!). Otherwise had a great time - great pubs (including a visit to the Crown, as recommended)!
Glad you and your friends had a good time
Yeah, it was thanks. Still things to see so great excuse to go back again.
Crazy thing about the RUR Museum was that I knew it was in Waring Street (same as the hotel) but didn't find it until the Saturday. Where was it? Across the road from the hotel! :-[ [My excuse is that the signage was very discreet, sometimes it was dark, I was in 'group mode,' I had my head down when it was raining, I was p*sh*d ....]
By that point, I had successfully sold it to everyone at breakfast and persuaded them it was a good place to go to only to find out, when we all crossed the road, that it was only open Monday to Friday(!) #-o ;D
The Naval Wargames Society are doing a re-fight/demo of Jutland on the 31st May at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard I am going down that week so will get to see it
I watched the C4 programme, found the computer assisted archaeology fascinating but the only major things I didn't know was about Harper charts and Beattie's attempts to doctor the evidence -me not being a real naval buff like some but only having a passing interest. As usual, the powers that be come out whiter than the driven snow as they focussed their malicious attention on Jellicoe as a scapegoat. As far as I am concerned, the new chart evidence was the only real revelation, the rest has been public knowledge for years.
It would have been nice to see more of the chart
Some pretty graphics with no real explanation of why the proved what was claimed and and a pile of "revalations" that were nothing new all presented in a pretty lacklustre way.
Very disappointed and glad I watched it in catch-up so I could fast forward through the most tedious bits.
Quote from: mart678 on 22 May 2016, 10:47:41 AM
The Naval Wargames Society are doing a re-fight/demo of Jutland on the 31st May at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard I am going down that week so will get to see it
Indeed and I get the thrill of being Scheer for the day :)
Quote from: Subedai on 22 May 2016, 10:57:47 AM
I watched the C4 programme, found the computer assisted archaeology fascinating but the only major things I didn't know was about Harper charts and Beattie's attempts to doctor the evidence -me not being a real naval buff like some but only having a passing interest. As usual, the powers that be come out whiter than the driven snow as they focussed their malicious attention on Jellicoe as a scapegoat. As far as I am concerned, the new chart evidence was the only real revelation, the rest has been public knowledge for years.
Yeah I wasn't impressed, it was nice to have the Harper charts verified and the explanation for Indefatigable being out of position. Other than that it was pretty dull, even the major theme - an attempt to redeem Jellicoe's reputation - wasn't actually impacted by anything they discovered. All they proved was that Beatty did indeed talk himself up and glossed over a rather iffy performance (in fact displaying all the characteristics Jellicoe found troubling). Nothing in the archaeology or "new charts" had any impact on examining Jellicoe's decision to turn away which is what he was damned for (wrongly IMO).
That we should expect anything more from TV history is what surprised me :)
An examination into why Scheer thought that having escaped once, turning back into the RN line was a good idea - that I'd like fresh insight on. As far as I can see it's just the exact counter-point to the criticism of Jellicoe.
I haven't seen it, but the comments from wargamers are always the same after a documentary. You do realise it wasn't for the kind of person who has read a number of books about it.
Far better view of Jutland on BBC Radio 4 at the moment. Admiral West narrating.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 May 2016, 12:24:46 PM
I haven't seen it, but the comments from wargamers are always the same after a documentary. You do realise it wasn't for the kind of person who has read a number of books about it.
I do, which is why I don't have an issue with them glossing over the magazine problems and revealing them as 'new truths', or of setting it up as some form of personality clash or scapegoating exercise - that's TV. Nothing they presented was particularly wrong, nothing was particularly shocking, nothing was really new (bar the confirmation on Indefatigable).
However they set out with an agenda - to vindicate Jellicoe. To this end, nothing they did, presented or unearthed had any bearing on Jellicoe's performance. Some of it had a passing bearing on Beatty's performance. So what I have a problem with is a journalistic TV programme failing to follow its own agenda or attempt to answer its own question. That's bad programming, bad journalism, bad presentation and bad writing. All of which could have been easily edited to fit the footage and outcome they ended up with. . .
And even then I don't have a major problem as I wasn't expecting much but they opened with the promise that these "new charts" will vindicate Jellicoe's decision - it was disappointing that this turned out to be not entirely truthful and [as a result?] the 'new charts' were basically never mentioned again :-\
Thanks for the YouTube link d_guy, as someone with almost no knowledge of it at all, that was an interesting video.
I've had a preview of Angus Konstam's new book on Jutland and its bloody good, really excellent, out next month and highly recommended.
Yes the C4 thing was overhyped crap, shock horror, flash doors left open, whoda thunk it.
Quote from: cameronian on 22 May 2016, 01:37:17 PM
I've had a preview of Angus Konstam's new book on Jutland and its bloody good, really excellent, out next month and highly recommended.
Yes the C4 thing was overhyped crap, shock horror, flash doors left open, whoda thunk it.
I've been waiting for its release and as of now it is available on Kindle - just downloaded - two bucks more than print but what the hey.
Incidentally does anyone have any idea when N A M Rodgers may be getting his 3rd volume out? I was rather hoping before the Jutland centenary.
@ Pierre and Paul - well, lots of pictures guys. Controversy aside, maybe Beatty will start firing sooner? :)
@ Zippee - Scheer at the Portsmouth game - well, no pressure there mate! :)
@ Fenton - thanks for starting a Jutland topic. I wondered when it was going to happen. :)
Quote from: Zippee on 22 May 2016, 11:34:52 AM
Indeed and I get the thrill of being Scheer for the day :)
Best of luck ;)
The BBC Radio proggie is available here:
Jutland: The Battle that Won the War
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bt7n7
Auntie Beeb's blurb says:
"Lord West explains why Jutland was the most important battle of the First World War on land or sea, a dramatic strategic victory and an inflection point which directly paved the way for allied victory.
He argues that the major British contribution to winning the war came at sea, and that it was the ancient British tactic of blockading and starving out a continental foe which eventually won the day, and shows how central the naval war, and the Battle of Jutland in particular, was to bringing America into the First World War on the allied side.
Lord West visits the German naval base in Wilhelmshaven, former home of the German Imperial navy and the place from which German naval commanders looked out on a North Sea which they could not safely navigate and from which they could not escape. He travels on a boat close to the site of the battle itself to imagine the scene when the sea was filled with giant 'castles of steel', firing huge shells and belching out coal smoke. And after meeting British and German historians, he travels to a new memorial in Jutland to weigh the human cost that day."
Dan Snow is "doing" Jutland next Sunday on TV. (Sun 29 May 2016 21:00)
Beeb's blurb for that is:
"The Navy's Bloodiest Day on BBC Two will bring the 12 hour naval battle at Jutland to life. On May 31 1916, the Royal Navy precipitated an apocalyptic head-to-head battle with the German Imperial fleet. 151 British warships, many the most modern in Britain's Grand Fleet, confronted 99 German ships. This was supposed to be a walkover - Britain's second Trafalgar. But it didn't work out that way. Instead, the Battle of Jutland was the bloodiest day in the history of the Royal Navy. During 12 chaotic hours, 14 British warships sank to the bottom of the North Sea with the loss of more than 6,000 Allied lives. For a century it's been considered one of the greatest disasters of WWI.
Presented by Dan Snow, engineer Shini Somara and naval historian Nick Hewitt, The Navy's Bloodiest Day will go to the heart of the 12-hour battle at Jutland. With brand-new scientific experiments, they will probe the reasons why so many men died. Through the powerful words of eyewitnesses, read by current Royal Navy personnel; through emotional meetings with relatives of those who died; and on board the only surviving Dreadnought from the era, they come to understand what it was like to fight that day. And as the Royal Navy prepares to commemorate the centenary, they join the first official survey of the battlefield, searching to pinpoint the wrecks of the five giant British warships in which the vast majority of the Allied dead now lie entombed.
The programme also features brand new documentary evidence that helps a reassessment of the significance of the battle. Was Jutland a disaster, or in fact the forgotten battle where the First World War was won, and lost? The programme provides amazing visceral and visual detail helping to uncover what went wrong and why the battle unfolded the way it did."
I'll keep an eye out for those programmes on nz tv (in between all the "reality" tv shows I don't watch)....but don't know if they'll be on here or not.
AAR with what went wrong with whose ships and pics after the game next Saturday.
Could you watch it on Channel 4's 'Catch up' facility on 'tinternet', Peter ?
It seems to be listed this morning, with 28 days to watch.
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 23 May 2016, 05:31:28 AM
Could you watch it on Channel 4's 'Catch up' facility on 'tinternet', Peter ?
It seems to be listed this morning, with 28 days to watch.
Cheers - Phil
Nope Techno I can find the programme but not get it to run - probably have to be in the UK for it to work. Can't find any mention of Jutland programmes coming up on any of the networks here :(
its not on "vutube" either, but did find and watch a couple of older C4 documentaries (from 2003) where they dive several the wrecks from Jutland - conclusion is that in order to fire rapidly the RN ships stacked unshielded cordite in handling rooms and also carried 50% more RPG and cordite than magazines were designed for so this lead to the problems. The lack of flash protection is hardly a revolutionary conclusion, but footage from wrecks certainly seems to support that as being the cause.
Seen Dan Snow in one episode of Dig WW2 - Amazingly they got a Browning .303 from a crashed fighter to fire again after being buried in a Irish bog for 60+ years. :o
Quote from: Ithoriel on 22 May 2016, 11:23:49 PM
For a century it's been considered one of the greatest disasters of WWI.
Really? And here was I thinking it had merely been damned as one of the greatest missed opportunities. :-\
Quote from: pierre the shy on 23 May 2016, 11:25:56 AM
its not on "vutube" either, but did find and watch a couple of older C4 documentaries (from 2003) where they dive several the wrecks from Jutland - conclusion is that in order to fire rapidly the RN ships stacked unshielded cordite in handling rooms and also carried 50% more RPG and cordite than magazines were designed for so this lead to the problems. The lack of flash protection is hardly a revolutionary conclusion, but footage from wrecks certainly seems to support that as being the cause.
That's the one I saw. :)
Quote from: Zippee on 23 May 2016, 12:20:48 PM
Really? And here was I thinking it had merely been damned as one of the greatest missed opportunities. :-\
Only because the dastardly Hun cut and run before we could give him the trouncing he so richly deserved!
The Brits lost more ships and two to three times as many men as the Germans - tactically that's a loss and was certainly seen as a disaster in the immediate aftermath - dockyardies booed some of the returning ships.
The fact that the Brits could afford the losses more easily than the Germans, that the blockade remained in force and that "The prisoner has assaulted his jailer, but he is still in jail" are facets that several of my acquaintances over the years seem blissfully unaware of.
Let's face it, these programmes are not aimed at naval history buffs, they are the TV equivalent of coffee table books.
Half the fun of these things is realising that the picture on page 48 purportedly of a Tiger I is actually of a PzIVH and a Syrian one to boot! :)
I didn't realise that HMS Tiger was actually a Syrian PzIVH and that my grandad (who wasn't even on the Turkish side of the family) was actually a Syrian tank driver.
Quote from: fsn on 23 May 2016, 12:34:23 PM
Only because the dastardly Hun cut and run before we could give him the trouncing he so richly deserved!
Err, the dastardly Hun, turned about and re-engaged the RN line - he escaped twice or the opportunity was missed, handed back to us and dropped again
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 May 2016, 12:48:53 PM
The Brits lost more ships and two to three times as many men as the Germans - tactically that's a loss and was certainly seen as a disaster in the immediate aftermath - dockyardies booed some of the returning ships.
But that's an awful long way from being considered one of the greatest disasters of WW1 for a century!
Let's be honest it's not a war short on disasters, immense loss of life and staggering suffering for little gain. The losses at Jutland set against the greater cost pale into insignificance.
The returning ships were booed and Jellicoe held to account, for not meeting expectations, not for presiding over a disaster - the British don't boo survivors of military disasters, we have a very long tradition of venerating them in high esteem and celebrating their failure!
And if that wasn't the case we'd have court-martialled Beatty on his return (which we should have done in any case!)
Quote from: Zippee on 23 May 2016, 01:54:21 PM
Err, the dastardly Hun, turned about and re-engaged the RN line - he escaped twice or the opportunity was missed, handed back to us and dropped again
Just the sort of cowardly underhand thing the Hun would do.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 23 May 2016, 05:42:22 PM
Just the sort of cowardly underhand thing the Hun would do.
Not to mention planting 5th columnists on board British ships to leave flash doors open :)
Dashed blighters will be using them underwater boat things next, you just can't trust the cads to engage in a fair fight with 3:1 odds - it's hardly surprising they haven't got a decent cricket team, them and the French, can't trust 'em even if they say they're on our side, at least if we'd have fought the French we'd have had a proper victory to celebrate not some 'strategic goals were met' baloney. Bah! pass the port, Swithers.
Quote from: Zippee on 23 May 2016, 02:03:11 PM
And if that wasn't the case we'd have court-martialled Beatty on his return (which we should have done in any case!)
Many years ago now I was involved in a Jutland refight where I represented Jellicoe. It was played out using 1:3000 scale ships on a number of school dining hall tables where each table represented an area of the North Sea but where adjacent tables might by areas of sea miles apart and tables at diagonally opposite ends of the hall were actually adjacent sea areas.
So, although I could see that Beatty's battlecruisers were on the same table as the the German battlecruisers and both sides were taking a pounding I had no real idea where they were nor where the High Seas Fleet were in relation to them.
I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.
I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different. :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 May 2016, 06:13:32 PM
Many years ago now I was involved in a Jutland refight where I represented Jellicoe. It was played out using 1:3000 scale ships on a number of school dining hall tables where each table represented an area of the North Sea but where adjacent tables might by areas of sea miles apart and tables at diagonally opposite ends of the hall were actually adjacent sea areas.
So, although I could see that Beatty's battlecruisers were on the same table as the the German battlecruisers and both sides were taking a pounding I had no real idea where they were nor where the High Seas Fleet were in relation to them.
I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.
I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different. :)
That is a brilliant way of handling one of the biggest challenges of refighting Jutland or any large multi-force naval game, consider it "borrowed"
Given the discrepancies in both forces dead reckoning Beatty still would be out by about 12 miles, according to the Official Narrative.
The really frustrating thing was the number of cruisers that were able to see both the Battle Cruisers and the Grand Fleet and didn't report
We had a WWI campaign in the 80s, where the opposing fleets met each other and the resulting action was played out across the floor of a large hall.
Firing was by estimated ranges. The Germans couldn't understand how the British kept getting straddles and hit whereas their range guesses were a long way out and we're taking ages to adjust.
They didn't spot, until about an hour in, that one of our players was a chippy (carpenter), and we were playing across a parquet floor...
Using Fletcher Pratt's rules from Don Featherstone's "Naval Wargames" by any chance Will?
My first naval games were played with those rules, 1:600th scale (mainly Airfix) ships and our back garden.
Quote from: paulr on 23 May 2016, 06:47:58 PM
That is a brilliant way of handling one of the biggest challenges of refighting Jutland or any large multi-force naval game, consider it "borrowed"
You might also like to borrow the idea from the same game that when a new table was needed it was selected randomly from those not in use, so knowing where in the North Sea a table had represented an hour ago told you nothing about where it represented now.
Quote from: paulr on 23 May 2016, 06:47:58 PM
The really frustrating thing was the number of cruisers that were able to see both the Battle Cruisers and the Grand Fleet and didn't report
From the fairly limited reading I have done, the lack of reporting up the chain of command, and the lack of good* orders back down the chain of command seemed to be a massive problem for the RN. * there certainly seemed to be lots of bad, or irrelevant, orders, from the Admiralty.
The table idea is genius - really adds in a true fog of war. Must have been hard work for the umpires to keep track of the real position of each battle group, and then the position of stuff on different tables.
There was an article last year or so, in Miniature Wargames, about a very big Napoleonic battle which had different forces converging on a town, and this used separate tables to represent each force as it moved and encounter the enemy (or not). As contact was made, and other forces marched to the sound of the guns, then tables would be brought together, as forces got close to each other. In the end they had a massive set piece battle across many tables, but the timing of troops entering (and their positions) was due to the earlier manoeuvring.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 May 2016, 06:13:32 PM
I sent a message to Beatty asking for his position and that of the enemy and got back the information that the enemy battlecruisers were so many thousand yards to starboard of him and the high Seas Fleet about 20 miles astern of him.
I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different. :)
Classic :)
I would look forward to his reply of "at about 15 fathoms, m'lord"
Quote from: fred. on 23 May 2016, 07:48:04 PM
The table idea is genius - really adds in a true fog of war. Must have been hard work for the umpires to keep track of the real position of each battle group, and then the position of stuff on different tables.
The Umpires (there were 3) had a map of the North Sea covered in little transparent polypockets (originally designed for conference delegate nametags) about the size of a playing card stuck on to the map. A card with the table number was slotted in to the relevant pocket. Occasionally umpires would amble up to a table look for a moment or two and call back, "Table 15 Fast Battleship Group" or whatever, so clearly even they didn't always remember what was where!
In our game the Fast Battleships entered the Battlecruiser fight far earlier and in the end 2 German battlecruisers were sunk, one scuttled and the other two badly knocked about. Two British battlecruisers limped away with flooded magazines and significant damage with Lion being ignominiously towed backwards away from the fight by those two with no working guns, engines or rudder. The other three were still able to move and fight but were badly damaged enough that they were ordered to return to Rosyth.
Also in our game we were penalised if the British light cruisers and destroyers were judged to have "communicated unnecessarily" which lead to there being almost no reports from the players commanding them.
No battleships on either side were sunk and very few actually got into action let alone got damaged.
Sounds like they got the feel of the game just right.
The use of plastic pockets and cards to track the tables is very clever too.
My complements to the Umpires =D> =D> =D>
They appear to have come up with some really simple and effective ways to deal with several complex issues :-bd =D> :-bd =D> :-bd
Some very useful ideas to tuck away for future use
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 May 2016, 06:13:32 PM
I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different. :)
Drinking my nightly tea (iced!) and just passed a substantial quantity through my nose. Thanks for that! ;D
As has already been said some really great ideas for fog of war. Scouting forces might actually get to scout.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 May 2016, 06:13:32 PM
I provoked much hilarity with a tart reply along the lines of "And where the f**k are you, Beatty, you bl***y twonk!? Better reports or court-martial expected." Perhaps if the real Jellicoe had been as testy the result of the battle might have been significantly different. :)
Do you think "F**k" and "twonk" are in the flag directory, or would they have to be spelled out?
Given the distances involved it would have had to be Morse Code communication using wireless telegraphy - hopefully encoded!
Quote from: fsn on 24 May 2016, 07:10:41 AM
Do you think "F**k" and "twonk" are in the flag directory, or would they have to be spelled out?
This
might be the pertinent signal hoist:
(https://leadenshipsandtinmen.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/signal-hoist.jpg?w=100)
Picture of HMS Caroline nearly ready to receive visitors. I think the Torpedoes still have to arrive
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt334/SteveW_04/13237661_731819676960910_4650940424544794507_n.jpg) (http://s625.photobucket.com/user/SteveW_04/media/13237661_731819676960910_4650940424544794507_n.jpg.html)
Looking good, Steve. Is that a very recent photo? When I was in Belfast last Friday the deck area from the bow to the bridge was covered in canvass. Will you be visiting her soon?
I remember when she used to broadcast illicit pop music.