last night at my local wargame centre I heard a disturbing rumour that Battlefront miniatures was experiancing financial difficulty and might be expected to go belly up, Has anyone else heard this or is it just another unfounded rumour?
Don't know about that, but I do know that Wargames Illustrated has been acquired by Dan Faukenbridge, its current UK editor.
See the furore over their DUST kickstarter - depending on whose side you believe, either BF have run off with the money to keep themselves afloat, hoping to use new sales then to fund the stuff they owe money for the second half of the 'Starter pre-orders, or the other side simply isn't telling them what they need to ship and everything is totes ready to go...
Either way it doesn't sound great :(
Is this a case of economy of scale, i.e. they have just got too big to be supported by their customer base?
I was reading an article that was saying that BF dont take any FoW stuff with them to GenCon anymore its all boardgames
It is now very difficult to get any Battlefront kit in NZ :(
A lot of stores are no longer selling it due to difficulties getting stock :( :(
Fairly inevitable looking at the business model they followed, the GW ship is sinking (slowly) at the moment, why expect any of its clones to fare any better?
Well, it worked for nigh on twenty years for GW so it's not that bad a model!
Even if i don't have a great deal of their kit, or use their rules it's a shame either way as the more diversity, easy availability and "easy entry" in the hobby in general the better.
Agreed. I went into the local GW the other day and bought 3 paints, 1 ink and a brush for my 10mm ACW. I really want a model shop, GW or otherwise to survive on our ever dwindling high street.
I'm really lucky in that there's a great little model shop in Widnes.
They're moving to bigger premises, which must be a good sign.
And the lady there calls me "young man". :-[
I've a cracking model/RC/hobby shop literally 200 yards up the road (Mikes Models/LAN Danaire). It's not a wargames shop but he carries all the paint, scenic bits & bobs, tools, flock, plastic figures from Airfix to Zvesda. And a bit of GW stuff... Dead useful, far too wallet draining. I'll jut pop in for a pot of paint, and fifteen quid later...
Sounds like the Widnes shop.
Just been for a £1.75 pack of static grass ... £33 it cost me!
I keep reminding myself I'm only getting some flock or paint or a brush. And then I've got another 1:72nd kit for my slowly accruing pile of Afrika Korps, or a couple of Zvesda Blenheims for 10mm AVBCW, or... Ghu help me if he stocked 15mm WW2 or Pendraken anything, or...
You lucky, lucky b*****ds. In the town we have a small GW shop and a 'Model Shop' that only sells Humbrol acrylics, overly expensive railway stuff and big models and kits. Doesn't even do flamin' balsa or brass wire like the now defunct Modelzone used to. We have a Hobbycraft over the other side of the river (20 min walk away) that does GW stuff and the odd larger scale Airfix and again, exorbitantly priced railway stuff. I make my own flock, buy brushes from The Works and my Vallejo paints at shows. Anything else is via the tinterweb. :-< :-<
I have no real interest in BF although I reckon they singlehandedly brought 15mm WW II to the masses and inspired other manufacturers to do the same. Never played the game but the chaps are nice little sculpts.I hope they don't go because with the sheer range of stuff they do they would leave a gaping void in the WW II market.
Their real problem is that they priced themselves out of the market and forgot that they don't have a monopoly on WW2 kit. The plethora of plastic and resin vehicles now available means that BF's are becoming less and less desirable. I, too, would be sorry to see them go (I'm always sorry to see any viable business go down the pan) They do things that the imitators can't or won't be bothered with.
Herts, I think you're very much spot on - when I first bought a couple of their models they were decent and cheap. I got most of my 15mm ww2 from QRF and the Pig, but BF filled a couple of desires easily and cheaply. Now it's more expensive for most of their stuff than the competitors, it's no nicer, there's not a lot of stuff I couldn't get elsewhere AND for bigger formations there's lots of cheap plastics from PSC or Zvesda easily available.
BF have started releasing similar ish priced kits but I think it's been too little too late. Shame as they provide a good "one stop shop" with their excellent web set up and painting guides and piccies and org notes etc etc. I don't play Flames but it's pretty handy and great inspiration :)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 17 May 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Their real problem is that they priced themselves out of the market and forgot that they don't have a monopoly on WW2 kit. The plethora of plastic and resin vehicles now available means that BF's are becoming less and less desirable. I, too, would be sorry to see them go (I'm always sorry to see any viable business go down the pan) They do things that the imitators can't or won't be bothered with.
This +1
Why buy in resin if you can get it cheap in plastic!
When BF first started, the one shop approach and price point coupled with the quality made it difficult to pass up. Now, they have too many SKUs, making it difficult for brick and mortar stores to keep things in stock. Still, despite the number of SKUs, they still make it difficult to complete certain lists. If it is not the current point of focus, LW, it is hard to get. Add to this, a Vietnam, Arab-Israeli, WWI and soon Cold War, line, it makes it even harder for a brick and mortar store to carry their line.
All of that, and the relative costs when compared to other companies, it really seems that BFs current business model is unsustainable.
I've not heard anything about it on the circuit, but it wouldn't come as a surprise. With their increased prices, aggressive attitude towards their own stockists, and the increasing number of competitors, there's always going to be a decline point.
They've followed the GW model, but at least GW can invent a new race, or access a fresh IP as they've done with LOTR, Hobbit or the online game they've just partnered up with. When you're dealing with historical armour-based conflicts, there's only a finite amount of options available. And higher initial production costs of plastic mean that a lot of vehicles are not viable to produce as there's not enough potential sales in them. They've expanded where possible, with the Vietnam, Arab-Israeli and Cold War ranges, but those are only short-term solutions.
I asked Dan Faukenbridge a couple of years ago where BF would go once the WW2 bubble had burst. He didn't know, and I suspect the company hadn't given it much thought, being on the crest of the demand wave. Their 15mm figure output is well up to standard, and I suggested Napoleonics, but it appears they're still wedded to tanks.
Didn't a company try boxed sets of 15mm Napoleonics 2 or 3 years ago? Where are they now?
Quote from: Leman on 19 May 2015, 03:48:10 PM
Didn't a company try boxed sets of 15mm Napoleonics 2 or 3 years ago? Where are they now?
Gordon and hague. If you look on their website you can see the kickstarter for napoleonics. They have boxed sets of 15mm acw (prepainted) too.
Wasn't the Napoleonics Capitan miniatures or something like that?
Just seen the Capitan boxes pop up on Wayland Games - they look pretty decent but there's a lack of good photo's that I can find!
TBH I'd be tempted by Warriors packs, can't be beaten on price and quality looks acceptable so far as I can see :D
Yes they do some nice Imperial Romans in true, ie small, 15mm, including a testudo.
Those ECW chaps I popped on my painting thread a week or two ago were Warrior. Lots if character, painted up nice - I've had some ropey stuff (25mm WoR, very thin, bit... Smooth) but even they were acceptable at worst!
The Warrior Nappys are superb, just enough detail so that you dont spend a week and a half painting one but enough so you know what they are, as for price well 100+ 15mm for £18 that just cant be beat.
Quote from: toxicpixie on 19 May 2015, 08:18:22 PM
Those ECW chaps I popped on my painting thread a week or two ago were Warrior. Lots if character, painted up nice - I've had some ropey stuff (25mm WoR, very thin, bit... Smooth) but even they were acceptable at worst!
I agree. I bought some 15mm ECW figures from them back in 1984-still got them- and they were great, and even then very affordable. Some of their other, larger figures are a bit suss though.
Never tried their 25mm but purchased their 18th century army pack and the figures are very nice indeed, stocky wee chaps full of character, their service is first class too!! :-bd
Quote from: Fenton on 19 May 2015, 03:59:00 PM
Wasn't the Napoleonics Capitan miniatures or something like that?
They are doing a game but I think the one being referred to is napoleon at war which seems to have stalled now
http://www.manatwar.es/
Yes that's the one I was thinking of
I can say hand on heart i will not be sorry to see them go...they forgot about the hobby and its customers and concentrated on the money.
Quality has gone down hill rapidly along with service.
I very rarely bought there items relying a lot on other manufacturers, the items i did get i got free as i worked as a free lance writer for them....see any of the Brit Airborne stuff.
I honestly would not be surprised that Battlefront isnt doing too well - they've over-expanded and from what it seems with very little strategy.
They started Early War, was a bit of a fiasco, and so many of their armies from Early War are not supported/not in stock, no longer in production.
Then added Vietnam, which was "okay", but the Flames of War ruleset doesnt remotely represent Vietnam accurately (aside from set piece battles between conventional armies) - and due to competition and wanting to reach out to other eras, they've added the Arab-Israeli wars, expanded on Vietnam, and then talk about doing the Cold War.... and yet once more, we're seeing ranges of models that aren't being covered, or stocked while the "new release" sales are high, before stopping. Nevermind that Flames of War's "company group" and at most "battlegroup" scale would never work in the 'Cold War gone hot' setting they've been trying to sell.
Battlefront have acquired Dust, but there's no news (ever) on the Flames of War / Battlefront website. I for one would've loved seeing Dust being made into 15mm so that they could be integrated into the already massive WWII range to allow expansion into the "wierd" war - but Dust seems like (yet another) project that's being left aside to die.
It's no secret either that both Forged in Battle and the Plastic Soldier Company have made dents into BF's marketting - which explains why Battlefront have really accelerated their plastics the past year or two.
All the recent expansions just seem very haphazard.
Judging by the BF-DUST Kickstarter shenanigans they won't be doing anything more with their license...
They were distributors only, not owners of Dust.
I'm not sure I understand all this schadenfreude. We are a very small hobby, and it seems to me that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) who ventures their own money to try and provide us with the toys we want deserves our support, if only moral. . If they are successful, good luck to them, as no-one is compelled to buy what they offer. If they fail, then they lose in the real world, with all the pain and hardship that entails, and why should we rejoice at that? All in all, it is each individual's choice as to whether or not to buy their products, but I fear it is less than generous to gloat over their problems. This all leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Sorry! :(
Mollinary
PS this is not my period, so I have never bought any of their products.
Quote from: mollinary on 21 May 2015, 08:28:10 PM
it is each individual's choice as to whether or not to buy their products, but I fear it is less than generous to gloat over their problems.
Agreed
I've never bought anything of them or played there rules but it would be sad to see them go
Take care
Andy
I guess I went into WWII with Pendraken due to the cost of Battlefront, so I thank them for being too expensive.
Quote from: Leon026 on 21 May 2015, 06:11:35 PM
but the Flames of War ruleset doesnt remotely represent Vietnam accurately
Is there anything FoW represents accurately?
Their or orbats and colour schemes?
Quote from: mollinary on 21 May 2015, 08:28:10 PM
I'm not sure I understand all this schadenfreude. We are a very small hobby, and it seems to me that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) who ventures their own money to try and provide us with the toys we want deserves our support, if only moral. . If they are successful, good luck to them, as no-one is compelled to buy what they offer. If they fail, then they lose in the real world, with all the pain and hardship that entails, and why should we rejoice at that? All in all, it is each individual's choice as to whether or not to buy their products, but I fear it is less than generous to gloat over their problems. This all leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Sorry! :(
Mollinary
PS this is not my period, so I have never bought any of their products.
:-bd
Quote from: mad lemmey on 22 May 2015, 05:44:31 AM
Their or orbats and colour schemes?
Are their orbats accurate?
Quote from: mollinary on 21 May 2015, 08:28:10 PM
I'm not sure I understand all this schadenfreude. We are a very small hobby, and it seems to me that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) who ventures their own money to try and provide us with the toys we want deserves our support, if only moral. . If they are successful, good luck to them, as no-one is compelled to buy what they offer. If they fail, then they lose in the real world, with all the pain and hardship that entails, and why should we rejoice at that? All in all, it is each individual's choice as to whether or not to buy their products, but I fear it is less than generous to gloat over their problems. This all leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Sorry! :(
Mollinary
PS this is not my period, so I have never bought any of their products.
All boils down to a lamentable lack of understanding of how the retail world operates and the factors involved.
Quote from: Hertsblue on 22 May 2015, 08:56:48 AM
All boils down to a lamentable lack of understanding of how the retail world operates and the factors involved.
Hi Ray,
Battlefront''s or mine? :-\
Mollinary
Mainly the knockers, Andrew. :)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 22 May 2015, 09:25:35 AM
Mainly the knockers, Andrew. :)
How did the totty thread get involved in this?
someone was keeping abreast of the times.
Puns busting out all over, must be Friday!
So are Battlefront going tits up? :-[ :D ;)
Someone's really milking this!
You're having bags of fun with this, but I think it's chest ridiculous!
#-o #-o #-o
Time we nippled this in the bud!
I'm still waiting for the poor 'memory' jest. X_X
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 22 May 2015, 06:54:30 PM
I'm still waiting for the poor 'memory' jest. X_X
Cheers - Phil
I don't remember that one
Poor Battlefront, if they're not careful they'll be nothing but a mammary!
That do you Phil?
:) :) :D :D
Much better than I was anticipating, I. ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Just another company who boobed on thier business plan
#-o
Nobby !!
Where are you ?
There are a lot of coats for you to chew, before I return them !
(Please do Ithoriel's carefully, though.)
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Techno on 23 May 2015, 05:45:52 AM
#-o
Nobby !!
Where are you ?
There are a lot of coats for you to chew, before I return them !
(Please do Ithoriel's carefully, though.)
Cheers - Phil
Nobby, pay special attention to the breast pockets though!
We should teat comments like this in the breast possible taste
=D> =D> =O =O =O
Sorry. I was just enjoying all the puns.
Bra-vo everybody! =D>
Thank you for your support.
;D
A lot of tat, just because of one innocent inquiry....
Nothing to beat your breast about.
Coat? Oh, cheers fsn! Now, pass me me titfer, will ya!
On another subject, I've been thinking about air support for my WWI - I fancy getting my hands on a pair of Bristols.
Zeppelin?
Parachutes?
Nope, I've got nothing...
Pun department is running on empty. :(
Made a boob there then Will.
Bu-bum-tish!
Felt a right t*t there!
I like to feel a right t*t. :-[
Did that comment lacktaste? Are we straying away from the title of this thread?
[Apologies to the good looking members (i.e., ladies) of the forum. Sorry. I can't help it.]
Why, your all debating whether Battlefront has made a b••b of things and whether it will go t1t$ up?
I actually really like their rules and figures, just not the business model. I had 54 players playing it the weekend before last. It's a good rule set if you ignore the cheese (über warriors of doom) and the odd scaling (apparently it's logarithmic). I still dislike having artillery on table, unless it's the Western Desert where guns were involved in combat, but if you want a fun evening company level scrap, that's easy to pick up and play, it's great.
I just hate the gamey competitors, in all senses of gamey!
Agreed, it is a good game, in a WWII context :) ;)
A very good way to introduce players to historical gaming. Converting them to more 'accurate' rule sets is up to us
Shame about the business model
Quote from: Westmarcher on 23 May 2015, 05:56:04 PM
I like to feel a right t*t. :-[
I usually sleep on my wife's left.
Don't like the rules, do like the figures but I'll continue to pick up the latter from EBay at more reasonable prices.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 23 May 2015, 05:57:59 PM
I just hate the gamey competitors, in all senses of gamey!
Well, don't we all. But these people are hardly restricted to just players of Battlefront/Flames Of War.
Or even wargamers. I stopped going to model railway exhibitions years ago because of the stench that some people emanated.
Cheers, Martyn
Frankly, I disliked the rules because I played so much WH40k just before discovering them. It was a time in my gaming life where I didn't wanted another 40k.
Quote from: petercooman on 17 May 2015, 09:37:56 AM
This +1
Why buy in resin if you can get it cheap in plastic!
I think their bigger problem was their reactions to plastic. First they tried to ignore it, then they tried to cut their quality control while marketing their stuff as premium product better than plastics justifying the price increases, then they tried to ban all now FOW troops from their tournaments. A lot of us spent a lot of money on their products, but as WWII is not a narrow set of figures most had a mix of items and found it insulting for them to declare that WWII gaming was their hobby, not ours. They wanted all or nothing, and many like myself have given them nothing since. I might play the game, but I will do everything I can to avoid giving my hobby dollars to a company that thinks it can demand them rather than earn them. They had a big reaction to this on their forum, pretended it was just the haters until one of their biggest fans came on and criticized theiry quality control and saying it was causing him to look for lead elsewhere. Then they modified the rule and dumped the forum of critical comments, when you ban critiques of what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong pretty soon you start believing your own propaganda and ignoring the truth you don't want to hear. I haven't bought one of their items from them or retail since. And many shops have eliminated or scaled back their shelf space, all because they didn't want to believe their customers or compete with their competitors.
They need to abandon the ridiculous warrior rules and let armies fight. It is a war game, not a Klingon saga.
Got rid of all my FOW stuff about 3 years ago. I notice they no longer own WI (no Women's Institute jokes please).
I occSionally see Pete the owner at the petrol station near the wife's work. I'll make sure pass on suggestions next time I see him. Have been meaning to mention how much I liked the first generation figures more.
Quoteinsulting for them to declare that ... gaming was their hobby, not ours... I will do everything I can to avoid giving my hobby dollars to a company that thinks it can demand them rather than earn them.
Every game company owner should have this inscribed on their CEO's brainwaves.