Hi, finally I bought Dux Bellorum. I read it and I like what I read.
Next step is making a force, as I see 32 points is a good starting point, isn't it?
I went for a Sea Raider of the Late period (mainly because I already have the figures for this).
I thought about a little invasion force of fiercy warriors from Jutland. The warband represent the tripulation of a Drakkar.
Aggression +5
Leadership 7 (3)
The leader is Oswulf (5)
3x Noble warriors (15)
3x Warriors (9)
0x Foot skirmishers (0)
Total 32, no points for strategies and tactics. I supouse I could grab some while after some games.
Ideas? improvements? comments?
I do not have any idea of the defenders... but I will think about them when I finish my Oswulf and the pirates from Jutland mini poryect.
The last topic is: There is 99% of possibilities I will solo play it. How do you solo play the rule-engine of leadership points in solo games? any advice?
Glad you like the game
It look a little one dimensional, you might find you have problems with an enemy with light troops and cavalry getting round your flanks
Noble warbands are very powerful. I would trim one of the noble warbands and use the extra points for strategies which are very useful.
Maybe drop the leadership 7 and use some of the points on a few skirmisher stands. As you play the game you will quickly find out what works for you, so I wouldn't worry too much at this stage. Personally I've got most options covered with my warbands, just so that I can vary them depending upon scenario or campaign etc. It does mean I have quite a few bases that rarely get used.
Thanks for the comments.
At this time of testing the game I am conditinated by the figures I had. So at the moment do not have javalinmen. I will keep the idea of small elite force of invasors. Maybe I will drop some leadership and adquire some strategies as Dour Puritan says.
the next step is looking for a hook to make a game, and I do not have to much Dark ages figures... little saxos, little normans, some vikings, and lots of arabs,. Because Dux Bellorum does not need to much figures I was confident in making a 32 points army of saxon maybe, but again my army list options will be determined by the figures I have.
Reading the Osprey about vikings I saw that in 844 some vikings from Denmark attacked first Lisbon and then Seville defying Abderraman from the Cordoba Caliphate. I like the idea of some fights in the Peninsula and also I have figures to represent the invasion. But...
1- The date is out of the scope of Dux Bellorum
2- The place is out of the scope of Dux Bellorum
3- I do not have armylist of arab people
Anyway I would like to game it with dux bellorum.
Do you guys have some houserules for arab people or know where I could search more list of Dux Bellorum in the net?
Any comment / imporvement /criticisim of the project?
People have used Dux Bellorum successfully in other periods/eras, eg. there was an article in WSS(?) several months back on a DB game between Romans and Macedonians. If you have access to a DBA/DBM army list book or website you should be able to work out lists for Spanish and Moors. Also, the fewer figures you use the more strategies you can employ, eg. Vikings could use mead whereas Moors definitely would not.
The 'official' Dux B forum is on boardgame geek, might be something on there
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/88079/dux-bellorum
You could try asking on TMP as well, although its usually a silly place some people do give good answers and advice
I do not like modify ruleset before playing some games, but I will make a first attempt to a fan list for Islam dark ages, in order to have some games of vikings vs Omeyas.
I introduce a camel unit and a new strategy.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/Duxbellorumislamdarkageslist_zps6a211a4c.jpg)
Any comment(/criticisim/improvement of people who had played Dux Bellorum is very very welcome,
Warning: This list is not playtested so beware of it!
Interesting
Would you have to choose the infantry units at the start of the game to get the +1 aggression or can you choose from turn to turn ( maybe the units need to be within a certain BW of the commander to get the bonus)
Personally I have nver been overly sure of the whole camel/ horse thing. If you like the rule then go for it though 6BW seems a bit far as that could be 36cm in distance
Design notes:
Islam expansion:
- core of non elite warriors and light horsemen (bow and javalin) in a byzanitne way
- Muslim uses the bow
- When expanding territories (aggresor) could be religous motivated --> mutatawwi
- Including a unit of camels gives flavour to the list
- Incluidng skirmishers is tpical of the armies of the moment.
- Strategies of ambush as muslim are light troops armies
- Startegie of levis as they used other subjucted tribes or local people converted to islam
- stratgie of assesination as the muslim world is famous by their hassasim. Historically they are from X-XII century but is a concesion.
Aye, Camels = 6BW is excessive. I'd take it right down to 'in contact'.
Limit the Mutatawwia to Warrior units.
What are Emir's stats?
Perhaps drop the mounted skirmishers to 0-3 units?
Not sure about historical accuracy by 6 of those units will mess up anyone's day.
It's also worth noting that 'skirmishers' in the DuxB rules are not skirmishers in the historical sense, bur lesser quality troops who fight in looser, peripheral units to support the rock-hard axe-wielding, shield-biting nutters and housecarls. There was estensive discussion about it with Dan pitching in to clarify things when the rules were first released (if i recall). Check out his 'merseybooks' blog.
:)
Quote from: Fenton on 28 November 2014, 12:12:11 PM
Interesting
Would you have to choose the infantry units at the start of the game to get the +1 aggression or can you choose from turn to turn ( maybe the units need to be within a certain BW of the commander to get the bonus)
Personally I have nver been overly sure of the whole camel/ horse thing. If you like the rule then go for it though 6BW seems a bit far as that could be 36cm in distance
I thought they are choose at the start of the game for simplicity if you have the strategy of mutwatalli. The fluff is the troops are a sort of fanatic and works by themself do not need a leader to be motivated, but I do not want to use the rule engine of fanatic that it gives the rules because is more like berserks and islamic zeal is different in my opinion.
About the distance of the camels, yep could be too far away. Maybe halfing distances: radius of smell 3BW and must retreat 2BW if the horses fail bravery. better?
About including a camel, I thought is a only unit to give flavour, only one, should not domain the game or the list.
Quote from: Luddite on 28 November 2014, 12:23:58 PM
Aye, Camels = 6BW is excessive. I'd take it right down to 'in contact'.
Limit the Mutatawwia to Warrior units.
What are Emir's stats?
Perhaps drop the mounted skirmishers to 0-3 units?
Not sure about historical accuracy by 6 of those units will mess up anyone's day.
It's also worth noting that 'skirmishers' in the DuxB rules are not skirmishers in the historical sense, bur lesser quality troops who fight in looser, peripheral units to support the rock-hard axe-wielding, shield-biting nutters and housecarls. There was estensive discussion about it with Dan pitching in to clarify things when the rules were first released (if i recall). Check out his 'merseybooks' blog.
:)
Defenitively 6Bw for camel is too much. Downgrade to 3Bw.
Yep limiting mutwatti to warriors could be right.
Emir is just the leader stat
I will keep skirmisher as low quality troops, because muslim armies in their expansion were a mix of people converted to islam and a mix of quality warriors. Thanks for the clarifing of skirmishers anyway.
About limit of troops:
warriors 0-4
archers 0-3
mount sk 0-4
better?
You'll have to try it out mate, but i'd suggest mounted skirmishers with bow range 4 will tear the Viking footsloggers to pieces. ;)
I would agree with Luddite about camels/horses in contact only
Could you maybe try tying the zealot troops with the taking of the Monks special add on or would that make it too complicated?
Quote from: Luddite on 28 November 2014, 12:39:19 PM
You'll have to try it out mate, but i'd suggest mounted skirmishers with bow range 4 will tear the Viking footsloggers to pieces. ;)
Well the bloody Vikings shouldn't be there - they'll get too hot and end up sliding down the Iron Maiden - :'(
Thank you very much for the feedback!!
Never played but I see pictis list as:
ordinary warriors 0-9
Mount sk 0-4
what do you suggest for max ?
Maybe
warrior 0-4 I see a lot of list have warriors 0-9 Is it too much to use 0-6? (sorry for insist but I would like a more detail explanation)
archers 0-3
skirmishers 0-3
Mounted sk jabalin 0-4
Mount sk archer 0-2
Camels 0-1
I do not get the idea of camel/horses in contact only... sorry. If they are in contact, how it is suppose the horses to fail the bravery test?
Fenton, could be good the monks for the zeal, but for me could be a little complicated, I would like at first instance as simple as I can. It is a good idea for a second approach of the list.
About the "volunteers" mutatawi limitation only to warriors. A limitation could be that you only could buy this strategy if you are the aggressor to simluate the quick expansion of the islam.
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 28 November 2014, 01:55:03 PM
Well the bloody Vikings shouldn't be there - they'll get too hot and end up sliding down the Iron Maiden - :'(
Historically the vikings were beaten by the muslims (in naval and also in terrain) - more or less ;)
J can't really help on this as I know little about the age of Islamic expansion.
:D I know something about islamic/byzanatine world but England dark ages always has been confusing for me. Since I bought Dux B. I am focusing my reading about in the subject, and is not easy at all.
Anyway, thanks Dour Puritan
Warhammer Historical: Age of Arthur is an excellent wargaming resource. Sadly out of print and generally rather expensive second hand. Luckily I managed to get one for around £20 earlier in the year, so worth keeping an eye out for. Dux Brittaniarum by Too Fat Lardies is appearently useful as well and available as a pdf.
Others may pop along for other recommendations, but IMHO these give enough info for us wargamers.
I have Age of arthur book, but is not here where I actually live. So when I went home by christmas I should rescue the book and bring it to North.
By now I am reading few osprays.
Quote from: jchaos79 on 28 November 2014, 04:52:08 PM
but England dark ages always has been confusing for me.
;D :-bd
Yep, it confuses most people - hence 'the dark ages'!
Most of what we 'know' comes from archaeology, and a very few written sources (mainly Gildas, and the later plagiarised work by Bede).
Dark Ages? Easy. The Romans left and turned off the light. The people remaining slept in apart from the Welsh who live in a land of perpetual darkness anyway, and so the Welsh stole all the history and rewrote it so that it all happened west of Offa's Dyke. Then a dodgy character called Arthur appeared and gave it large to some innocent Danish tourists. He disliked their annual trips to the country, that they Came-a-lot. His wife Genny was from Essex, so had it away with some French geezer. Or this might just have been bed time reading for the illiterate peasants and their elephants.
Another bloke was also hacked off with Danish tourists - didn't even like the bacon. He was more a cakes sort of guy. Preferred a bit of manor house to a bacon sarnie any day. His name was Alf. Alf Kipling.
Some more Danes came over. One was a right Cnutter and went for a paddle. Then goody-goodies started writing reports about the goings on. One of these guys at Jarrow was a bit venerable and kept his Bedey eye on what was happening. Anyway, one of the Norwegians, right dozy pillock, was heading for Newcastle, but took a wrong turn at the Orkneys and found Greenland. Was Eric's face red at that one! After that he was known as "Eric the Pillock Who Didn't Turn Left at Scapa".
Then the Normans came with an order for some wall hangings. Harry, who was in charge of the gaff at the time, would have dealt with the matter, but he was too busy watching "900 years until England wins the World Cup".
Quote from: jchaos79 on 28 November 2014, 04:52:08 PM
:D I know something about islamic/byzanatine world but England dark ages always has been confusing for me. Since I bought Dux B. I am focusing my reading about in the subject, and is not easy at all.
Hang on! :o You can get the Byzantines stuff, but have difficulty with English history? When something is tortuous and complicated they don't say "Well, that's a bit English."
I repeat - :o
I just read more about byzantine and muslim than english history. But I am far from being an expert (in any period)! just a wargamer.
I see you have clear vision of the history of the Island.
Well, England is only half the island. Scottish history of the period is just as interesting.
FSN I hate to disagree with you, but England is larger than Scotland, and you fail to account for Wales in your equation to.
Plus the country of Berwick.
The Liberty of Norton Follgate.
Sealand
Scotland was united long before England ever got its act together. :P
Byzantine history has the incentive of being interesting, and the bonus of armies worth gaming with.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 28 November 2014, 11:22:12 PM
FSN I hate to disagree with you, but England is larger than Scotland, and you fail to account for Wales in your equation to.
Was just pointing out the oft neglected northern portion of these her isles. Was a geographical rather than a mathematical comment. As for Wales, well isn't mentioning that like commenting on a wart on a lady's lip?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 29 November 2014, 01:54:27 AM
Byzantine history has the incentive of being interesting, and the bonus of armies worth gaming with.
Interesting is as interesting does. I find Byzantine history interesting to a point, but all the politics and palace shenanigans gets awfully tedious.
Quote from: fsn on 29 November 2014, 11:07:51 AM
As for Wales, well isn't mentioning that like commenting on a wart on a lady's lip?
:o :o :o
Just remember the 'nationality' of the gentleman who makes the wee tanks, Nobby. ;)
Cheers - Ffill
Quote from: fsn on 29 November 2014, 11:07:51 AM
As for Wales, well isn't mentioning that like commenting on a wart on a lady's lip?
Well, i normally try to avoid this sort of thing, except with our Doughboy cousins across the pond or of course with les grenouilles (but both of those are just affectionate ribbing and banter).
However...i alwyas quite liked Wales. My maternal grandmother was Welsh. My wife is part Welsh.
The 4 years ago i went to a friend's wedding in South Wales (he married a Welsh girl).
His house is like a fortress - replete with barbed wire and CCTV - as it is regularly attacked by the local Welsh neighbours. His car was a wreck - regularly keyed, mirrors bashed off, dented, tyres cut, etc. Because he's English, he and his partner said in a matter-of-fact way. 'Shocked', didn't cover my feelings on that.
Then at the wedding itself, the small 'English contingent' was ignored by the majority Welsh crowd in a prickly, brooding atmosphere.
At the reception, the snubbing continued, and when the other Welsh locals at the reception venue heard our accents, the trouble started.
The trouble ended with us being physically attacked in the lobby of our hotel.
The police arrived at 2am to 'keep the peace'. There were no arrests despite our protestations. A hotel fire door was off its hinges. There were three black eyes. The police took details of our vehicles in the carpark.
Two weeks later i received a notice of intention to prosecute from the local Welsh police - for an alleged speeding offence, which i'd apparently committed at 2.10pm, when i was in the church watching the wedding ceremony. Took quite some time, stress, and effort to get that sorted and the notice dropped.
So my experience of the Welsh, and of Wales is not one i wish to repeat.
I've lived in several countries, in some good and some very rough places too. I've never felt such visceral hate towards me, just because i'm English.
=((
Hmmm, not great Luddite to say the least :o. Fingers crossed I've never had any problems with being English in Wales. A former colleague who was Welsh hated it when English people went into the pub and then everyone started to speak only in Welsh. No wonder Bristolians have a great deal of animosity towards the Welsh if they behave like that :(.
I apologise for the way this thread has deteriorated. I mean no real offence to our Cymric cousins, just a gentle leg-pulling in the full knowledge that our resident putty puller lives in the land of no vowels.
Quote from: Luddite on 29 November 2014, 12:23:27 PM
I've lived in several countries, in some good and some very rough places too. I've never felt such visceral hate towards me, just because i'm English.
Hae ye no been to Scotland?
Hey gentelmens, any comment about Dux Bellorum or fan list arab/muslim expansion?
I lived in Aberystwyth, probably the most Welsh part of Wales at the time, for about 10 months back in the 70's and never had a problem with the locals, despite a noticeable Yorkshire accent. It seemed to me that problems tended to arise when an Englishman expecting to be snubbed met a Welshman expecting to be patronised and each proceeded to prove the other right.
I am frankly amazed at that. I lived in Manmoel and worked in Oakdale and Newbridge, and was also a member of the Cardiff wargames club (at Taff's Well) for a total of two years and never ever experienced anything like that, in fact completely the opposite. I made many really good Welsh friends and was on the brink of moving there to take up a permanent role at General Dynamics until Gordon Brown's sound-bite fantasy hole in the MoD budget appeared and they were forced to cancel either FRES (GD were working on FRES) or the aircraft carriers.
I also invited English mates down to watch Rugby league challenge cup finals at Milleneum and Rugby League magic weekends in Cardiff mixed in with some Welsh mates and every on got on famously together.
I grew up as a boy from England in Wales. Never came across any animosity, and indeed ended up being able to speak some Welsh and able to pronounce it correctly. I say boy from England as that's where I was born, but I prefer to think of myself as British as my ancestry is predominantly Celtic, with a lot of other stuff thrown in as well. Anyway, as Jchaos says - any more thoughts on Moorish armies in Dux Bellorum?
Quote from: jchaos79 on 29 November 2014, 01:00:03 PM
Hey gentelmens, any comment about Dux Bellorum or fan list arab/muslim expansion?
You're right jc.. back on topic. Soryy for the threadjack. :-[ :-[
From Warmaster Medieval Armies:
The Almoravid Moors
Hasham Guard Cavalry - Max 1 unit (armed with javelins and shields, employed to guard commanders)
Jinetes - Max 4 units (light cavalry armed with javelins)
Black Guard - Min1/Max 2 units (tasked with guarding the Caliph)
Almoravid Spearmen - Min 4 units (the core of the army)
Almoravid Archers - Cannot have more archers than spearmen (Apparently these were deployed within the spearmen, so maybe you could add a shooting stat to the spearmen units? Alternatively, have the archers deployed in front of the spearmen, and they can retreat through when close combat beckons?)
Skirmishers - (no unit min or max given) Mainly javelin armed with some detached archers for longer range shooting.
Hopefully the above should give you some useful info to come up with a list. I can see the leader being deplyed with the Hasham Cavalry and the Black Guard being elite foot soldiers. The spearmen and archers are your rank and file, with the Jinetes being skirmishing cavalry. The other skirmish units pretty much as per the book.
Hope this helps?
Do you think you need:
Allied Andalusian Light cavalry, 0-1 bow armed, rest javelin armed🐴
Thanks Steve J, I know that list and belongs to XI-XII century, and even the list is from the Peninsula is not dark ages.
I base the Dux bellorum list in a simplify version of Expansion of islam armylist from warmaster armies, which belongs to dark ages VIII - X and I think fits better to face vikings (IX century).
I will try to paint in the next week a small force and then make some games.
Not sure about the max - min of dux bellorum, but I should go for something like:
1x Emir or clanleader 5
3x warrior 9
3x arhcers 9
1x mount sk archers 2
2x mount sk jabalin 4
1x camel 3
Total 32 points
is it a large force of dux bellorum or is it ok?
Sorry, didn't realise you wanted the early list :-[. Should have read the whole topic as it would have been clear to me :D. From what you have written so far it looks ok to me. The only real way to tell is to try the list out over several games and scenarios.
I personally think leeks are very tasty.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 30 November 2014, 02:04:23 AM
I personally think leeks are very tasty.
But cats can only eat meat...
Someone pointed out that there is an official forum for Dux Belloram. It certainly has Sassinids on it.
IanS
Quote from: ianrs54 on 30 November 2014, 08:52:07 AM
But cats can only eat meat...
Someone pointed out that there is an official forum for Dux Belloram. It certainly has Sassinids on it.
IanS
They make me terminally sick, but they're still tasty.
???
Leeks, that is. This kitty has never eaten a Persian, though he knows three (bipedal).
Quote from: jchaos79 on 28 November 2014, 12:01:49 PM
I do not like modify ruleset before playing some games, but I will make a first attempt to a fan list for Islam dark ages, in order to have some games of vikings vs Omeyas.
I introduce a camel unit and a new strategy.
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/Duxbellorumislamdarkageslist_zps6a211a4c.jpg)
Any comment(/criticisim/improvement of people who had played Dux Bellorum is very very welcome,
Warning: This list is not playtested so beware of it!
One question: are the camelry functioning as skirmishers or riders? I'd assume skirmishers based on the numbers, but just wanted to be absolutely sure before commenting further.
For the Mutatawwia I'd be tempted to model and cost it more closely on one of the pre-exiting tactics, so +1 aggression when contacting enemies, cost 3 points for <5 units, 5 points for >5 units as per the Imposing Horsemen tactic. This also removes the need for identifying the affected warrior units because they'll all have it if chosen.
Is there any particular reason why you changed their stats away from the book warriors? Are you also removing the uncontrollable charge?
I'd also add in Monks to tactics.
Cheers,
Meirion
Hi Meirion,
About camel, my though is they work as riders. Please feel free to comment, improve change or give a point of view more close to Dux bellorum philosophy.
For Mutatawwi going close to the prexisting tactics sound good for me. I choose only three to not bust the army. I think this should only be allocate in infantry to not boost the cavalry. They are religous zeal but do not represent single derrange warrior as bersekers. So +1 when contact enemy sounds good for me. If you think 5 muatatawwi is not unbalance is it right for me. Which cost do you consider for 5 infantry units with +1 contact enemy?
I consider that being a background so different as anglosaxon/danese/norman the stats of the muslim warrior should be slight different, not only by the way of fighting but also for their cultural weapons (offensives and defensives). I downgrade protection and raise bravery. Less armour and compact tactics but more movil and moanouver army.
Yep I am removing unocntrollable charge.
Yes Monks is good for tactics. I like it.
Any way the list 2.0 with the suggested changes so far
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/DUXbellorumislam20_zpsca4eb50f.jpg)
Here it goes the Dux bellorum Al Andalus army finished
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu205/jchaos79/DSCF4110_zps2db8fec6.jpg)
Now I need to re-read the rules and find some time to make the first game
Very nice!
Very pretty.
One tactical tip - don't put your troops into one big group. You'll end up having wasted Leadership Points.
I do this all the time when i'm playing. :-[ :( ;D
That's male sense, thanks Luddite
Can DB handle big games? Like really big! (for an equivalent I'd say Warmaster 6000+ points).
Technically yes, but I think you would have to mess about with Allied commands etc to get enough Leadership points to make sure you had enough for organising your troops
Yes it can. You just have multiple forces allied together.
We do this for our large WotR games. The centre and each flank is a separate 32pt force.
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Wars%20of%20the%20Roses (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Wars%20of%20the%20Roses)
Thanks guys. Would it play well at that size?
Nice batrep Luddite; how long would a DB battle twice that size take?
Depends on the number of players. Our WotR game was a 4 player and it was done in just under 2hrs.
Okay, thanks Luddite ;)
Steve, I know you play both. Which runs faster DB or Warmaster? (Anyone else please feel free to chip in).
Dux Bellorum by a country mile.
Quote from: Luddite on 15 February 2015, 06:37:18 PM
Dux Bellorum by a country mile.
Thanks again ;)
Hmm; could I use Warmaster basing for it?
Quote from: getagrip on 15 February 2015, 06:33:12 PM
Okay, thanks Luddite ;)
Steve, I know you play both. Which runs faster DB or Warmaster? (Anyone else please feel free to chip in).
They are different though pushed I would say DB for historical
Someone here did a 100 years war version but can't remember who
Quote from: Luddite on 15 February 2015, 06:17:13 PM
Yes it can. You just have multiple forces allied together.
We do this for our large WotR games. The centre and each flank is a separate 32pt force.
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Wars%20of%20the%20Roses (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Wars%20of%20the%20Roses)
My god those figures are huge!