10mm bears

[Ithoriel]

GordonY wrote
yeah - i suppose the LOTR films could have been worse. I was annoyed enough that the Rohirrim charged pikemen (well pike-uruks) in the Helm's Deep scene in the films, pikemen who had their pikes levelled against them, and rode them down. I was all "that's historically inaccurate, cavalry couldn't ride down pikemen" (unless the pikemen were disorganised by archery or spread out, or they hit them in the flank or rear while they were engaged to the front etc)

While Swiss pike were, in their day, quite formidable I don't imagine they would have stood much of a chance if the French or Burgundian cavalry charge had been lead by the archangel Michael. Which is pretty much the situation in LOTR.

[Techno]

Were Swiss pike much harder than others of their kin, because the lakes they lived in, were so much colder for most of the year ?
Cheers - Phil

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Sir! Sir! Techno just made a fish joke!
Someone put him in his plaice.

[kustenjaeger]

I'd just tuna'd out ...

[FierceKitty]

Anchovy brill trout herring?

[FierceKitty]

(Cor, talk about easy posting-inflation!)

[Fenton]

Ok guys calm down you'll upset Mad Lemmy  that's too many fish jokes in a roe

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

ArGGGGH.......

IanS

[Leman]

"If the French or Burgundian cavalry were lead...", generally they are unless they are plastic. Surprised FK didn't spot that one.

Present tense - I lead  you lead  etc.

Past tense  -    I led    you led   etc.

[toxicpixie]

What Ithoriel said - those Orc pike were boned as soon as Gandalf led the charge. They'd have killed their horses and broken their necks charging down a 45degree rubble and scree slope even before they hit the steady pike...

With the shining light of the Valar on them they not only managed a knightly charge through terrain that would fox skirmishers but their target was broken before they hit. Cheatin' angelic wizards! Who needs shields or tactics when you're divinely protected?!

[FierceKitty]

"If the French or Burgundian cavalry were lead...", generally they are unless they are plastic. Surprised FK didn't spot that one.

Present tense - I lead  you lead  etc.

Past tense  -    I led    you led   etc.

I have to leave a few sitting ducks for the less Annie-Oakley-like here to shoot.

[Luddite]

In DBM terms:

Irregular Fast knights (Kn(F)) charging across difficult going (DGo) into frontal contact with Regular Exceptional bows (Bow(X)).  The orc commander gave the order 'form ranks, spears in front, archers behind'.

The only way they could make it down the hill is by an impetuous advance (they weren't in column, and i doubt Gandalf had enough PiPs to get them all down the hill in formation).

Shooting on the way in IrrKn(F) +4 vs RBow(X) +4 = honours even.

At impact IrrKn(F) +3 vs RBow(X) (which count as Bw(S) vs mounted troops in melee +4 = bowmen have the advantage.  They will also definitely have overlaps on the outer edges giving a +4/+2 advangate to roll across the line.

The knights are 'destroyed by (S) bowmen whose front they moved into contact with this bound'.
The bowmen are 'destroyed by any mounted troops in contact'.

So...its going to be brutal, and along the line the knights should get decimated.

I'm calling shenanigans on Gandalf's dice rolls...

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

But you are forgetting the 'rule of cool'!

[toxicpixie]

I'd have thought the Uruk-Hai were actually deep ranked Pike (o) with Psiloi supporting (if DBehatever allows that now/still/sometime in one of the revisions!), leaving them of something like a +7/8 versus the Knights +3 or less as they'd be at least in partial DGo and iirc at least some of DBM revisions mean they get utterly boned by that... Negative combat factor and insta-kill?

It's all that cheatin' wizards fault, either way.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Two generals in the first rank +anything?

At least they did the charge at Pelannor Fields for real!

[FierceKitty]

Under the circumstances, they'd be getting off lightly with decimation. I'd think annihilation more likely.

[Maenoferren]

Errrr that hill was nearer 60° than 45°... Riding down a 45 degree slope holding a lance  means you are lying backwards over the the horse...oh and there was no galloping involved....

[Dunnadd]

While Swiss pike were, in their day, quite formidable I don't imagine they would have stood much of a chance if the French or Burgundian cavalry charge had been lead by the archangel Michael. Which is pretty much the situation in LOTR.

Fair point, Gandalf is a maia, pretty much a demi-god, but there's no mention in the book of him using any magic, nor of the orcs/half orcs/uruks/dunlendings being formed up with pikes.

Magic in middle earth is usually used sparingly even by wizards and other powerful magic users, with its use exhausting them quickly (at least in the Third Age). Doubt any magic user had the power to make a whole army of horsemen capable of riding down pikemen who were facing them (still less on the very steep slope shown in the film, as others have pointed out).

In the book it was the combination of a whole forest of ents and huorns turning up, combined with the Rohirrim attack led by Gandalf and Eomer that broke Saruman's forces morale, not just one cavalry charge.

Techno wrote

Were Swiss pike much harder than others of their kin, because the lakes they lived in, were so much colder for most of the year ?

I'm sure that wasn't a minnowmal factor. Also living at higher altitudes they'd have more stamina. They'd still be full of energy when the enemy were floundering due to exhaustion, leaving them open to terrible injuries which would require the attentions of a sturgeon at the least, an undertaker at worst.

[toxicpixie]

No mention in the book, true - but then that charge is very different in the book! In the film the cavalry charge down a very steep slope covered in rubble at speed (although in slow-mo, they're moving pretty darn fast - and as maenoferren points out they're lying almost flat back as they do!). No one falls, let alone the whole lot end up as a pile of lasagne at the bottom as would likely happen "in reality". And then, before they hit, the light not only blinds the Uruks but causes them to drop pikes, and break formation. Even then I'd expect quite a lot if injury from piling horses into such a mass BUT THE ONLY PEOPLE HURT ARE ORCS!

Now, that's an exact fit for how the most powerful "good" magic tends to work in middle-earth. The divinely protected just roll on through with seemingly "natural" effects mysteriously embuggering the bad guys allowing ten to be chopped down at will. See Elronds "whoops, a major river just went into a tsunami and swept away a whole passle of ring wraiths" or even the crossing of care idris where mysterious weather suddenly appeared and hey look it winter and we're forced off to Moria...

Sorry, bit shouty there - but whether it's entirely true to the book or not, the charge in the film is quite clearly divinely protected both from terrain and injury, whilst the pike is broken even before contact. All courtesy of Gandalf the "Hey look I'm now a divine being who can use his powers, someone hold my mead & watch this lads!" White

Otherwise it'd be rohirrim-kebab and welcome to Helms Deep, home of industry and commerce.

[Dunnadd]

  yes, maybe, fair point , but the film is RONG, RONG, RONG, should've been like it was in the book etc.

I didn't interpret it as Gandalf using magic in the film, but just as one of Jackson's stupid special effects scenes where he thinks his imagination is better than Tolkein's and is wrong.

e.g in the final film of The Hobbit , there's a scene where Legolas runs off an old bridge faster than it can collapse into a chasm. Legolas has no magical powers, but Jackson still has him doing something which destroys any possibility of suspending disbelief, presumably on the theory that it looks impressive (it doesn't, it looks terrible). The charge at Helm's Deep in the Two Towers film isn't quite as bad, but still seemed like the same kind of thing to me.

I could be wrong though, could be meant to be Gandalf using magic in the film. EDIt - watching a clip on youtube, there is bright light for a moment from Gandalf during the charge and orcs seeming to be blinded by it, but their pikes are still levelled

And so, i put it to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that Peter Jackson must be made to pay for his crimes against Tolkien, crimes ten times worse than the Holocaust, and that the only sentence that will provide justice would be his death, torn apart by a giant bear, while dressed as Bolg son of Azog, as part of a much better remake of The Battle of the Five Armies.