PQ17

[fsn]

Anyone see Clarkson and the PQ17 prog last night?

A question. Dudley Pound obviously mucked up telling the convoy to scatter, but once scattered could it have been reformed? One suspects that would have involved radio traffic saying "OK chaps, let's meet at point x." To which the reply would probably have been "Danke. Ve vill be there." (Sorry Mr BigBoss.)

Also, if the Tirpitz was such a threat why weren't there heavier units from the Home Fleet in support? I know some convoys were supported by battleships.

I would love to have seen Clarkson dumped in the Arctic waters. They'd have had three minutes to get him out, wouldn't they?   

[Ithoriel]

Reassembling the convoy would be a nightmare - even if you could rely on encrypted signals or signals not being intercepted the convoy would take hours, if not days, to collect together. First arrivals would need to remain in place for far too long, prey to u-boats and air attacks, even if the convoy hadn't broadcast it's position.

Why no heavier units? U-boats and aircraft, at a guess. Possibly also a belief that the Germans did not have enough fuel and escorts to send Tirpitz to sea.

[Fenton]

I would love to have seen Clarkson dumped in the Arctic waters. They'd have had three minutes to get him out, wouldn't they?   

I would have sailed on at that point

[sebigboss79]

Reassembling the convoy would be a nightmare - even if you could rely on encrypted signals or signals not being intercepted the convoy would take hours, if not days, to collect together. First arrivals would need to remain in place for far too long, prey to u-boats and air attacks, even if the convoy hadn't broadcast it's position.

Why no heavier units? U-boats and aircraft, at a guess. Possibly also a belief that the Germans did not have enough fuel and escorts to send Tirpitz to sea.

Much merit in this summary.

It is near impossible to regroup a convoy in the aftermath of an attack. Now you try after the code signal for "Tirpitz is coming, save yourselves" has been given.

While a number of convoys had long range protection by Battleships and aircraft carriers the majority was escorted by nothing more than corvettes, frigates and destroyers with an occasional (light) cruiser as a flagship. Tirpitz was a "fleet in being" to the extent that major attacks via air were conducted to remove this threat.

[fsn]

I was wondering about the Leo Gradwell group. I'd love to do a game with the three merchant ships andf trawler stuck in the ice fighting off surfaced U-boats and boarding parties using tank guns.   

[cameronian]

David Irving is fascinating on the Arctic convoys, as with much else. His history of PQ17 is available as a free d/load below.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/PQ17/

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Be very careful with Irving - his politics do tend to flow into his history, and to put it politely he leans a bit to the right. Not a comment on that work.

IanS

[fateeore]

Be very careful with Irving - his politics do tend to flow into his history, and to put it politely he leans a bit to the right. Not a comment on that work.

IanS

I don't know why you say that, don't most people refer to the judge as 'Mein Furher' when giving evidence in court? 

[Fenton]

Well I dont hold him much regard as denied the holocaust ever took place

[paulr]

A number of the ships did join up into mini groups after scattering and these did much better than the single ships fighting off both air and submarine attacks.

One group of about 3 merchantmen and 2? corvettes scattered to the north and ended up hiding in the ice. They even found enough white paint to paint the southern sides of the ships to help with camouflage.

Another group formed from some of the ships that scattered east, including the 2 AA ships. Several hid in various coves on Novaya Zemlaya the large islands to the east of the Barents Seas, particularly the 'gap' between the two islands about the middle. They were gathered up and several days later they arrived safely in a mini-convoy having driven off air attacks.

British heavy ships were not permitted east of Bear Island due to the risk of air attack and also U-boats. The Royal Navy was very short of battleships at this time and those that were available were spread very thinly across the globe. The Italians had raided Alexandria damaging Queen Elizabeth and Valiant. Prince of Wales & Repulse had been lost off Malaya. Anson & Howe had not yet been commissioned and the old R class were not really up to much except convoy escort well away from trouble.

The thing that amazes me is how little help the Russians gave to the convoys. Almost no air cover, very limited raids on the German airfields, even making it very difficult for the British to base aircraft in northern Russia to provide the air support the Russians weren't providing...

Also Stalin insisted on the convoys even though it was much easier to deliver supplies via Iran...

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

My late departed neighbour was on the a northern Convoys and was disgusted to get into
Murmansk in spring 44 to find all the kit they had delivered n 43 still exactly where he left it.
He lost the tip of his forefinger in a breech closure incident and missed his ships last convoy and he was the only survivor!
He later served on minesweepers at DDay.

[fsn]

My grandfather was a merchant seaman. He was on a convoy and the ship in front of his was sunk. His ship moved up, and the one behind (i.e. where his ship had been) promptly went down.

He said it was at that point he began to take it personally.

[cameronian]

Well I dont hold him much regard as denied the holocaust ever took place

He absolutely did not. Have you read Hitler's War?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

2 years in an Austrian prison.

IanS

[get2grips]

Well I dont hold him much regard as denied the holocaust ever took place

2 years in an Austrian prison.

Good!

[cameronian]

Good!

Sigh. He was put in prison and charged with 'challenging the established history of the holocaust and Nazi Germany' and also with 'reactivation'. It is not possible to research WWII and publish anything of merit in either Germany or Austria because of these laws, they are fundamentally illiberal and date (in Austria at least) from the period of soviet occupation. You might be interested to know that any attempt to allocate blame for Katyn to anyone other than the Nazis was also a criminal offence until 1998. I shouldn't be surprised at the attitude of some of the posts above, as our country becomes more 'european' our liberties recede.
Before anyone replies to this, please state which of Irving's books you have actually read.

If Turkey joins the EU the European arrest warrant will permit the deportation, trial and imprisonment of anyone asserting the truth of the Armenian holocaust. Presumably that will meet with your approval also.

[Matt J]

Irvine did not deny the holocaust but he stated that it was exaggerated, the gas chambers a hoax and that Hitler knew little about it.
I haven't read any of his books (nor do I wish to) but that isn't relevant because the charges related to lectures he gave.
I think the guy is just a bit of a plonker and egotistical.

Agreed though the laws are archaic and illiberal (you shouldn't be sent to prison for being an egotistical plonker).

[sebigboss79]

Hmm..same crap another year?

Concerning the holocaust: Yes they/we DID kill that many. We are damn efficient in everything and do keep records.
Having said that I discussed these matters with a friend in another forum. He is in his 70ss now and emigrated as a young boy to Israel. Lost his parents in the Holocaust.
He says I should and as a matter of fact all germans be proud of our country and what we did OUTSIDE these 12 years. He says he certainly is.

The problem is that there are indeed people who use the "You Nazi" argument (a little excessive imho) to justify any kind of opinion upon Germany and Germans. I do hope at least some of you do not feel offnded by my mere existence but the sad truth is some people are (not with me personally).

There are a lot of ignorant bigots on this planet but I believe they can be found in every country, in some to a higher degree than others but stupidity and ignorance a the first globalised issues.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Well said sir.,

[Techno]

Don't end up falling out gents......please !
Cheers - Phil