New Russian Military

[Fenton]

http://defense-update.com/20130821_moscow-expected-to-showcase-new-combat-vehicles-at-rae-2013.html

[Leon]

That artist impression looks pretty cool, heading into SciFi territory almost:

[Ithoriel]

So, how long before fsn realises he just HAS to have some 10mm examples? 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

30 seconds ?

I want one now

IanS

[sebigboss79]

Looking good but beauty usually never wins wars.
Besides ease of maintenance did you know that just 60 % of the Warsaw Pact equipment was actually in any kind of state to be battleworthy withing "reasonable time" ?

Rumour has it that NATO would have outnumbered the Soviet tank formations 3/2....
Nonetheless remains the Merkava my favourite tank (eyecandy).

[Hertsblue]

Since no-one knows for sure what the thing looks like, let alone what it can do, it would seem a little previous. Reminds me of the great MiG 25 debate (that plane was reputed to do everything but play the balilaika) forty years ago. 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/aug/22/russian-military-hovercraft-beach-video at least we know they can beat up tourists on a beach...

[sebigboss79]

Since no-one knows for sure what the thing looks like, let alone what it can do, it would seem a little previous. Reminds me of the great MiG 25 debate (that plane was reputed to do everything but play the balilaika) forty years ago. 

Which is partly justified.

[Russell Phillips]

Since no-one knows for sure what the thing looks like, let alone what it can do, it would seem a little previous. Reminds me of the great MiG 25 debate (that plane was reputed to do everything but play the balilaika) forty years ago. 

Exactly. Remember when the T-80 was supposed to look like this?

[sebigboss79]

Overcompensating?

[Russell Phillips]

The people commissioning that artist's impression were probably the same people asking for more M1s/Challengers. The bigger and badder the other guy's tanks, the easier it is to secure funding for your own tanks. I seem to recall rumours that the KGB or GRU had stolen the details of how to make Chobham armour.

[Last Hussar]

The US didn't do bad with the F117.  Everyone convinced it was bell shaped- Even Tom Clancy in Red Storm Rising

[fsn]

Seems to me that tanks, like cars are all developed by the same styling agency. They all look the same. Computer generated. Not like the good old days when if it had a turret that looked like an upturned frying pan, it was Soviet, if it had an extra tiny turret on top it was Yank and if it looked properly manly, it was British. 

[Hertsblue]

The US didn't do bad with the F117.  Everyone convinced it was bell shaped- Even Tom Clancy in Red Storm Rising

Ah, one of my favorite books. It was based on a wargame - how many books can you say that about?

[mart678]

Does it matter what it looks like it will have a 125mm smoothbore also an Autoloader and then some heavy machine guns or cannons it will still be a soviet tank and you will need a lot more to do the job of 1 Challenger II or M1

[Last Hussar]

Looking good but beauty usually never wins wars.
Besides ease of maintenance did you know that just 60 % of the Warsaw Pact equipment was actually in any kind of state to be battleworthy withing "reasonable time" ?

Rumour has it that NATO would have outnumbered the Soviet tank formations 3/2....
Nonetheless remains the Merkava my favourite tank (eyecandy).

Yeah, but the NATO units were  not necessarily as battle worthy as you may think.  AFVs are like Just A Few Orcs' women - expensive and temperamental.

[Rob]

Yeah, but the NATO units were  not necessarily as battle worthy as you may think.  AFVs are like Just A Few Orcs' women - expensive and temperamental.

I've heard it said that the Chieftain was the best tank in the world if it broke down in the right position. 

[T13A]

If I had to go to war in the mid 70's and I had a choice, it would have been in a Chieftain.

T13A Out!   

Cheers Paul

[sebigboss79]

Yeah, but the NATO units were  not necessarily as battle worthy as you may think.  AFVs are like Just A Few Orcs' women - expensive and temperamental.

I know the mobilisation figures and without support of the second wave Warsaw Pact gets slaughtered on their drive to the Rhine. If they ever reach that river the German army alone has mobilised 2,500+ Leo1 and 2s to counterassault, across the Rhine if need be. BAoR has been the top priority during cold war and the Americans had quite a stockple of stuff that shoots in storage in Germany.

French army was ready to use their whole nuclear stockpile should the Reds ever reach the Rhine and twice offered German governments partial control of these weapons should WW3 break out.

Honestly I cannot see the WP forces do anything but deal a heavy initial blow. Even if they dig in to conserve their territorial gains they will loose any war of attrition. The "Stay behind" forces were quite well trained and stockpiles of old materials would ensure a loooooong way to disarm and pacify those Germans who got caught on the wrong side and pissed at the Reds. Admitted a total surprise leaves a lot of German army reserves behind enemy lines.  I assume training of western allies was not any worse than German Bundeswehr draftees and those were quite well trained to sneak back to where they are needed, live off the land and give the occupying force a hard time while doing so.

Another matter is the make up of forces which for Germans and WP forces is almost entirely draftees. I would argue one of the sides would have draft offices stormed by people who want to take up weapons, never mind the training and shoot the invaders, whereas the other side would be asked why their children are sent into the meatgrinder.

And just for the record: The German army currently stockpiles more than 100,000 old G3 rifles and sufficient ammunition in case of national emergency. I would argue just in case, subject walks into local recruitment office, subject asks for gun, gets gun, starts shooting at the invader.

Former GDR Generals -who knew real world scenarios- were shown outdated logistic plans to move troops to the front and civilians to safety. Some rumours say they were impressed and assured the West German Generals if their defense plan was just half as good we would see zero ability to stop NATO forces on day X+30. Other rumours say some GDR Generals started crying and breaking down admitting total inability of the WP forces to do anything but get killed trying.

That does not diminish the danger of any WW3 scenario. Untill early 80s WP trained to time their assault 3 minutes before NATO starts moving. And we are talking tactical nukes combined with a massive chemical attack. WP estimated no survivors in their first wave on X+10 and as much as 50% casualties for the second wave following within 72 hours. The odds were not that much in WP favour as people normally think and readiness was always the strength of NATO.

[Hertsblue]

I've heard it said that the Chieftain was the best tank in the world if it broke down in the right position. 

The main problem with the Chieftain's engine was that it was supposed to be polycarburant, i.e it would run on anything from chip-shop oil to petrol. Once they'd given up on that daft idea it ran reasonably well.