Ruleset comparisons

[kyussinchains]

Hello!

I've only recently joined the forum and gotten into 10mm scale gaming, having had a few demo games of warmaster in the past few months, I've been playing Epic:Armageddon for a long while and love it, but with the demise of Specialist Games decided to jump into warmaster!

I've really enjoyed it so far but notice a good few fantasy armies on these boards used for other systems, HOTT seems to be popular, and I'm wondering if anyone fancies giving me a rundown of any of the alternative rulesets out there suitable for fantasy armies on 40x20mm bases (ideally ones which are free....) preferably with a comparison to warmaster for my reference

I'm happy with WM and E:A for my gaming, but wouldn't want to miss out on something fantastic!

many thanks
Simon

[Ithoriel]

I drew up the "Albion" army list for Warmaster so I'm not entirely unbiased. Having played both, I much prefer Warmaster. However, I'll try to be impartial ... and brief.

Similarities

- both are designed for Fantasy but have historical "sibling" sets
- both use random die rolls to decide your movement options so you can never be sure of moving all the things you want to
- both make it relatively simple to slot new troop types in
- both use a points system to select armies
- both use modified die rolls to resolve shooting and melee

Differences

- HOTT units are identical frontage but variable depth, Warmaster uses fixed base sizes but different orientation (with a couple of exceptions)
- Warmaster Magic is integral to the system, in HOTT magic feels to me like it was tacked on because you need magic in a Fantasy set.
- HOTT has no fixed background so can cover pretty much any army you can imagine, Warmaster uses the GW fluff (which we ignore!)
- HOTT armies tend to include a much smaller number of units so are cheaper to buy and quicker to paint
- HOTT with it's smaller armies and simpler combat resolution plays faster
- Our standard 2000 pt Warmaster games needed a 6' x 4' table, I've happily played HOTT games on a card table.
- HOTT "characters" are built in to units, Warmaster characters can race to the rescue or pile in to the destruction of units.

Summing up

Both games have their advantages and both are worth playing.

If you are strapped for time/ cash/ space (or all three!) HOTT gives a fun game.

Warmaster needs more time, more space, more figures and more thought but is ultimately more rewarding and gives a better feel for the sweeping, idealised combat I read of in Fantasy Novels. Noble Knights (and ignoble ones too) are queen of the battlefield, characters dash to where they are needed (sometimes) and mages scour the battlefield with spells but may find themselves sliced and diced by a knucklehead with a sword

All the above IMHO, naturally.

[kyussinchains]

thanks for the reply, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for

HoTT certainly sounds interesting but perhaps not what I'm looking for, I really like huge scale games with lots and lots of units.... is there scope to play larger than normal games of HoTT

Also, if I have an army based for warmaster, is it usable for HoTT?

Also interested in any other rulesets out there..... anyone tried hordes and heroes?

[petercooman]

I haven't used any fantasy rules except for warhammer fantasy and warmaster variants, but the description you gave about the kind of game you want immediately made me think of an introduction to a ruleset i once read/

http://15mm.co.uk/Age_of_Might_and_Steel.htm

It is made for 15 MM miniatures, but could be useable for 10MM maybe? I don't have the rules myself, but still thought i'd point them out, just so you know

[fred.]

I have played warmaster for a number of years - but in the last couple of years I have moved away - mainly because of the combat resolution in WM, and the over powered knights. The combat resolution is rather fiddly, and the many round combats can go on far too long. Heavy cavalry is very hard to counter - and it ends up with infantry hiding in woods and villages.

The two sets of rules that I have been playing instead, using my large 10mm WM armies, are Hail Caesar and Kings of War.

HC is primarily an ancients set - and it is clearly a descendant of Warmaster. It keeps the command rolls and blunders, but simplifies units and combat. We wrote up some fantasy additions (based on WM) that are available in the yahoo group.

More recently we have been playing lots of KoW - we like the fast play and simplicity of the rules. The game plays quickly as the core rules are very straight forward, but there is enough depth in the game to keep it interesting. It certainly allows for big games

[Ithoriel]

the over powered knights. The combat resolution is rather fiddly, and the many round combats can go on far too long. Heavy cavalry is very hard to counter - and it ends up with infantry hiding in woods and villages.

<snip snippity snip snip>

More recently we have been playing lots of KoW - we like the fast play and simplicity of the rules. The game plays quickly as the core rules are very straight forward, but there is enough depth in the game to keep it interesting. It certainly allows for big games

For me heavy cavalry OUGHT to be hard to counter. This is Fantasy not historical. The source material here is Tolkein, Jordan, Gemmel et al not Aeneas Tacticus or Anna Comnena. Cavalry are devastating, knights more so. Skirmishers are all but unknown and play no real part in a battle even if present. Archers have laser guided MIRV warheaded arrows - unless they are goblins, in which case they couldn't hit a barn if they were stood next to it. Despite which. a man in a loincloth, with a sword in his hand and a prayer to his savage god on his lips can walk through an arrow storm with barely a scratch. And so on.

That said, Warmaster definitely works better with lots of varied terrain.

I've heard good things of KoW but not tried it - must rectify that sometime soon.

[petercooman]

OOOh nice setup !!!

[Luddite]

I've only recently joined the forum and gotten into 10mm scale gaming,

Welcome!

having had a few demo games of warmaster in the past few months, I've been playing Epic:Armageddon for a long while and love it, but with the demise of Specialist Games decided to jump into warmaster!

I'd consider that a 'step along the path to a good set of rules'...

I've really enjoyed it so far but notice a good few fantasy armies on these boards used for other systems, HOTT seems to be popular, and I'm wondering if anyone fancies giving me a rundown of any of the alternative rulesets out there suitable for fantasy armies on 40x20mm bases (ideally ones which are free....) preferably with a comparison to warmaster for my reference

Actually, there are surprisingly few that fit the bill you're after (abstract basing).

Warmaster

Which you know about...

Hordes of the Things

An excellent ruleset, disgined for 'small' armies (roughly 12 bases er side, but totally scalable to any size of game you like.    It differs not only from Warmaster but most other games in that it model's 'cause and effect'.  So it is based around set troop typers defined by how they fight and the effects they have.  'Blades' for example are heavy infantry skilled at close fighting.  Wether armed with spears or swords is irrelevant - its the effect they have on the field that's important.  IT has a wonderfully elegant command and control system that you'll find similar to WM, but easier to determine.  Essentially you get to move 1-6 units/groups each turn - then everything fights!  Simple.  IT's also suprisingly bal;anced (although initially it seems not to be).  As each troop type has its own strengths and weaknesses, its an easy game to learn and a difficult game to master.  Lots of fun too!

Uhh....i'm struggling to thing of anything Fantasy...
You're then into converting historical rulesets.

[Wulf]

There is a fantasy version of Impetus you can download from the Impetus website (which I can't access from work, so I can't provide a link...) Also a diceless & rather old system called Jabberwocky which I like the look of.

[julesav]

Hi Guys

I've not played much Warmaster but I've played a lot of HotT.

The HotT system is basically designed for 24 point armies - so up to 24 'elements' of troops. I've played a lot with double sized armies in 28mm and triple sized forces in 10mm and 15mm.

We played HotT a lot at my local club using 28mm GW figures on big (10cm frontage) element bases - multiplying ranges and moves by 2.5 to take account of the base size changes. We had no problems playing with two 24pt armies (and 2 players/generals) each side on a 6ft x 4ft table. the game splay really fast once you're accustomed to the rules and the youngsters a tclub love that a GW £50 box set pretty well did a complete HotT army often with options.

Equally if you want to use your WM elements you can group them 2x2 and play 'HotTsquared' - just double moves and ranges and treat each group of 4 elements as if it were a single element. This gives a 'look' identical to 'Impetus' which I like as it gives more options without rebasing.

In my own personal opinion the thing about HotT that really, really shines is the campaign system - in my experience campaigns usually bog down in excessive paperwork etc but the HotT system (borrowed from its historical 'cousin' DBA) is simple and brilliantly effective. Imho you'd be mad not to download HotT even if just for the campaign system. Also as the campaign system is basically that of DBA the 'Fanaticus' forum has loads of alternate map set ups etc.

For more HotT info check out the 'Stronghold reborn' HotT site.

I've had a demo game of Kings of War at my local club and it seems like a very nice and versatile system too!

cheers

Jules

[nikharwood]

My vote would got for Warmaster for all the reasons above - I find it fun, fast & furious...

Kings of War plays well though, as does (surprisingly?) Warhammer (6th edition being my favourite) if you just scale it...

[Ithoriel]

My problem with Warhammer is that it just seems to me to be unable to decide if it is a skirmish system or a battle one and winds up being unsatisfactory for both.

I preferred Mordheim for skirmish and Warmaster for battle games.

That said, whatever people find works for them is fine by me.