Chain of Command

[Ithoriel]

Looking at the battle reports I think this may be what I was hoping "Crossfire" would be all those years ago.

I love the concept of the pre-game recon.

Ordered the basic, rules only, bundle. Now torn between digging out my 20mm Soviets from whatever cupboard they are lurking in; doing the whole thing in 10mm or using it as an excuse to get a box of 28mm plastics. Decisions, decisions!

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

I got to play at the Lardie Day in Scotland and loved it, another Club member was also wowed and we have both pre-ordered. I have been reading about Normandy recently and was stuck by how few casualties seem to have been incurred prior to a unit halting/retiring compared to games I have played. Even the HJ was, it seems, at about 60% and LAH at 77% in manpower terms after Falaise. Clearly vehicle losses were almost total and replacements had been received, but it set me wondering. And then I read the game report for yesterday with the Germans pulling back defeated but without being devastated and I thought - Eureka, that's it!

I am now eagerly awaiting my copy and dusting off figures for it.

Richard

While I'm also looking forward to Chain of Command I would caution focussing on divisional losses from Normandy vs losses in the rifle/grenadier companies which were often very high.  Often the grenadier regiments started at 70-80% TO&E (e.g. 9 SS Pz Div).  British rifle platoons habitually operated at low strengths (see 18 Platoon by Jary) and British rifle companies could be reduced to 65 men before an action (e.g. 1 Worcesters at the Seine crossing had all their rifle companies at about this strength.

Regards

Edward

[Rob]

Greetings

While I'm also looking forward to Chain of Command I would caution focussing on divisional losses from Normandy vs losses in the rifle/grenadier companies which were often very high.  Often the grenadier regiments started at 70-80% TO&E (e.g. 9 SS Pz Div).  British rifle platoons habitually operated at low strengths (see 18 Platoon by Jary) and British rifle companies could be reduced to 65 men before an action (e.g. 1 Worcesters at the Seine crossing had all their rifle companies at about this strength.

Regards

Edward

Indeed, well said Edward.

Richard,
LAH and HJ divisions came out of Normandy as rumps. That is to say they were not totally destroyed as formations, but their combat power was destroyed. The remaining 60-70% in these divisions consisted largely of redundent crew who's weapons or vehicles were lost, admin, supply, communications, mechanical, medical, and command personnel. It was normal for this type of elite division when relieved to have very few infantry remaining.

These formations would be refreshed within a couple of months by allocating fresh men to the teeth arms and training them. This worked well for the Germans within their elite formations as you retain a profesional and veteran cadre but continually supply it with eager and enthusiastic new infantry to use up in the next battle. 1st airborne dropped into the middle of just such a process when they landed on the rumps of 9th and 10th SS and the SS training school at Arnhem. I think Normandy was the 4th "version" of the LAH division and the Ardennes the 5th.

Cheers, Rob 

[rim66]

Absolutely agreed on the combat power - vehicle holdings were virtually nil. Throughout the book, however, it details the losses for the various battles where known and also clears up some of the 'misreporting' by some German formations, where the commander was saying they were down to a weak battalion but the Chief of Staff's figures show much more combat power - this was presumed to be an attempt to get priority for reinforcements or to get the Panzer divisions relieved. But the comparison was against games I have played where forces have to be destroyed, which just doesn't seem to have been the case in many individual engagements - the same units just keep reappearing and so they can't have been THAT devastated or they would have had to be withdrawn for refitting. I didn't explain myself well, but the point was more that being chucked out of a position as the Germans were in the demo but still remaining a coherent force with a resupply and a new NCO seems more realistic.

Richard

[Last Hussar]

I always assume it as not destroying, but making combat inneffective.  A kill isn't necessarily a kill, its a man running away, or a non working main gun.

[rim66]

Okay, gone back and checked the figures again as I seem to have set a hare running!!

At full strength the 2 divisions were each about 21 500 strong. This was split 3 ways:

The combat arms - those in direct contact with the enemy - about 12 000. These were the PzGren (7 000), the Pz Regt and the Pioneers, Recce and PzJag.

Combat Support - arty and flak. No figures but a typical bn strength of 1000 would give 4000.

Combat Service Support - the supply, medical, repair etc the balance, say 5 500.

Rough figures but hopefully good enough.

Now to losses.

HJ reported having 12 500 men after Falaise, with 2 500 in the support units. This leaves 10 000 for the combat and combat support and losses of about 9 000. Even if we assume the combat support was at full strength, then that still leaves 6 000 or 50% in the combat arms.

LAH reported total losses of about 5 000. Even if we assume they were all Pz Gren, then there would still be 2 000 left - about 2 bns.

Now I know we could play with figures ad infinitum and prove just about anything, but I did find it quite illuminating to see just how many men were still present compared to my expectations given the length of time in combat.

As for vehicles - pretty much none. But this does, perhaps, explain the speed with which some of these formations were rebuilt - the real need was for new equipment.

Hope this helps explain where I was coming from. But, again, it was more a point that I have seen many games which seem to be fights to the death and this seems not to have been the case. There were clearly occasions, but gradual attrition seems to have been more the order of the day.

Richard (who is enjoying the exchange of ideas)

[Lardy Rich]

Good afternoon gents, I just noticed you were talking about Chain of Command and thought I'd chuck in my shillings worth. 

The data you're presenting about losses is very interesting and illuminating.  However, those losses refer to an extended period in action.  What Chain of Command is doing is taking a very short action fought over a relatively small piece of ground.  Typically our platoon sized action on a 6' by 4' table is actually representing 240 yards by 160 yards.  The time represented by the game varies, but no more than fifteen minutes.  What we are looking at in such an action is how a platoon reacts to losses in a relatively short space of time.  Or, more to the point, how one side seeks to defeat his opponent by destroying his opponent's will to fight, rather than killing every last man jack of them.

Personally I think this adds a level of interest and playability to the game.  If you are faced with an opponent who has selected King Tiger, then your chances of blowing that up are fairly remote.  However, if you can kill sufficient of his infantrymen, and thereby leave the tank feeling exposed, then you can win the game without actually killing the Tiger. 

There's nothing new in this militarily, it's all standard text book stuff.  What is certain is that there are any number of quotes from first hand accounts where two forces encountered each other, fought until one side decided that it was prudent to clear off.  This contrasts with the number of accounts which talk about fight to the death last ditch actions where units suffered 70% plus losses in the type of platoon level actions we are looking to replicate.  I don't think you can apply the template of losses over a period from D-Day to Falaise to a game where you have, essentially, a couple of platoons encountering each other in a fast and furious dust up. 

Cheers

Rich       

[Steve J]

With reference to the Falaise battles, that 'Platoon' of men could equally represent a reduced Company, either Axis or Allied. I've read of 'Companies' being commanded by Corporals,'Battalions' by Lieutenants, where due to the sheer scale of attrition, they were said Companies/Battalions in name only, mainly on the Axis side, but on occasion on the Allied.

[Lardy Rich]

Not WWII I know, but in 1918 the British Army SS143 training manual insisted that an infantry section should be retained as an independent unit of command as long as it had three Other Ranks present and that a platoon should be retained as an independent unit so long as they could field two separate sections of three men each.  So a nine man platoon assuming a platoon commander and two section commanders.   Which is about 20% of book strength.  They clearly reckoned that the section with 3 ORs and an NCO was a plausible tactical unit. 

In extremis three men with an LMG and an NCO would be a very plausible little unit when all you are attempting to do is form a defensive front with interlocking fields of fire. 

It won't allow you to do much in the way of fire and movement though.     

Rich

[Steve J]

That's interesting Rich, thanks for sharing.

[nikharwood]

You bunch of bad b@$tards...I've been successfully ignoring this for a while...and then watched the first vid earlier tonight while cooking...now I'm onto the last vid and planning forces 

Next decision is whether to do it in 28mm as well as 10mm...cos I love 28mm as well, especially for skirmishing... (anyone got any 28mm surplus they want to unload - my Bolt Action wish list is ~£90 - and that's with no vehicles  )

[Ferb]

You could go 20mm1/72 plastic, nearly as big as 28mm these days and much cheaper!

[nikharwood]

You could go 20mm1/72 plastic, nearly as big as 28mm these days and much cheaper!

Hmm...not convinced - I like metal (plus I've got a load of 28mm terrain  )

[Steve J]

I know you hate 15mm Nik but according to Rich that works out at pretty much the correct scale (size for pedants ) for the rules. Peter Pig do some great Platoon deals where you can get one for around £12. Add in some plastic tanks etc and Bob's your uncle .

[nikharwood]

I know you hate 15mm Nik but according to Rich that works out at pretty much the correct scale (size for pedants ) for the rules. Peter Pig do some great Platoon deals where you can get one for around £12. Add in some plastic tanks etc and Bob's your uncle .

Never happen. 15mm is the spawn of Satan