Rules designed for 10mm models and figures

[Luddite]

All I was thinking here is to raise the level of troop purchase to be by unit to save a players army list needing to be too long.

Cheers, Rob  

Thats fine if you have fixed unit sizes/qualities, etc.

Fixing things like this are fine where you have points balanced forces for tournemants and competitive play, but its tricky for scenario design though eh?

Few formations ever really fought at 'paper strength' eh?  That's true from divisional scale down to unit/skirmish scale.

For example, I recently did a bit of work on trying to figure out how the British operated tactically during WWI.  I'm lucky enough to have access to an expert or two on this.

On paper, the smallest operational unit in the British army was the 10-man squad.

In practice, in the trenches the smallest operational unit was actually the platoon.  A platoon would be of no fixed size (due to losses) but typically numbered between 20-40 men.  The Officer commanding (again rank could vary greatly based on losses/replacements) would then structure his platoon according to the current task at hand.

For example, the Lewis LMG was often assigned as a section to a platoon.  In defensive actions where it was firing from a fixed position and could therefore stockpile ammunition to be readily at hand, typically only 2-3 men would be assigned to the Lewis section.  In an attack, it could be as many as 8-10 men assigned to the Lewis gun section, mostly as ammunition carriers and replacement gunners.


Modelling points for this at skirmish/small tactical level (1 figure = 1 man) 'by unit' therefore would be tricky, unless you just abstracted things of course (like rules such as The Great War, and many others).


In terms of 'rules for 10mm' though, where typically many figures are collected onto a base, such abstraction is assumed, and in the above example would 'represent' the relative effectiveness of a 2-man fixed LMG as equal to an 8-man mobile LMG.

[Rob]

Thats fine if you have fixed unit sizes/qualities, etc.

Fixing things like this are fine where you have points balanced forces for tournemants and competitive play, but its tricky for scenario design though eh?

Few formations ever really fought at 'paper strength' eh?  That's true from divisional scale down to unit/skirmish scale.

Not sure we are on the same wave length. What I am suggesting is if you are going to have a game with a large amount of units at corps or army level you do not want to be buying your force by individual figures or bases. If your wargame force is a 1:1 ratio then you will build it by individual figures.
The size of the units should still be based on the reality of the original unit sizes and not on a theoretical maximum. As an example (Anorak mode) I’ve created French and Austrian army lists for Wagram 1809 to test out the viability of organising a force by units and building by brigades. Here’s an Austrian example:

Infantry Division HQ, 1 Division Commander @      10pts   1-2 per Corps

Artillery Brigadier, @             0pts   0-1 per Division
1 to 3 foot batteries made up of:
Brigade Artillery, 6lbr Battery, large, RC @      60pts   1-2 per Division
Position Artillery, 6lbr Battery, medium, RC @                   40pts   0-1 per Division

Infantry Brigadier, @             0pts   2 per Division
Up to 5 infantry regiments made up of:

Veteran Line Regiment, 2 or 3 medium battalions, SCv @ 72 or 108pts,
or large battalions, SCv @         108 or 162pts 0-1 per Division

Line Regiment, 2-3 medium battalions, RC @                   48 or 72pts,
or large battalions, RC @         72 or 108pts,
or extra-large battalions, RC @         96 or 144pts 2-4 per Division
      
Landwehr, 1 small battalion, RB @         6pts,
or medium battalion, RB @         12pts    up to 4 per Division

(/Anorak mode)
Sorry about the formatting, it all goes to c@*# in forum mode.

For example, I recently did a bit of work on trying to figure out how the British operated tactically during WWI.  I'm lucky enough to have access to an expert or two on this.

On paper, the smallest operational unit in the British army was the 10-man squad.

In practice, in the trenches the smallest operational unit was actually the platoon.  A platoon would be of no fixed size (due to losses) but typically numbered between 20-40 men.  The Officer commanding (again rank could vary greatly based on losses/replacements) would then structure his platoon according to the current task at hand.

For example, the Lewis LMG was often assigned as a section to a platoon.  In defensive actions where it was firing from a fixed position and could therefore stockpile ammunition to be readily at hand, typically only 2-3 men would be assigned to the Lewis section.  In an attack, it could be as many as 8-10 men assigned to the Lewis gun section, mostly as ammunition carriers and replacement gunners.


Modelling points for this at skirmish/small tactical level (1 figure = 1 man) 'by unit' therefore would be tricky, unless you just abstracted things of course (like rules such as The Great War, and many others).


In terms of 'rules for 10mm' though, where typically many figures are collected onto a base, such abstraction is assumed, and in the above example would 'represent' the relative effectiveness of a 2-man fixed LMG as equal to an 8-man mobile LMG.

Surly this is the job of a platoon commander managing his assets and moulding the task organisation of his platoon to a particular mission. The same example could apply to rifle-grenade sections also. In a set of 1:1 based rules you will still buy individual figures and assign them to sections as befits their purpose in your force. If you are using rules with a base representing a section or a platoon, what you are purchasing when building your force is not necessarily a fixed number of men but a viable unit, so for a viable platoon this may mean an actual strength of between 20 to 40 men.

(Anorak mode) Incidentally the development of the British, French and German platoons during WW1 is a fascinating subject and will vary by year and division. If you have not read them I thoroughly recommend:
Battle tactics of the Western Front â€" Paddy Griffiths
British Fighting Methods of the Greta War â€" various authors, editor Paddy Griffiths
Stormtroop Tactics â€" Bruce Gudmundsson
The German Army on the Somme â€" Jack Sheldon
The German Army at Passchendaele â€" Jack Sheldon
1918 A Very British Victory â€" Peter Hart

I also have a PDF 1917 infantry platoon training manual and a translated 1918 French small unit combat manual if you want them.
(/Anorak mode)

Cheers, Rob 

[geoffb]

As a side note the Warmaster and Blitzkrieg Commander series of games were designed with 10mm in mind.
Having played BKC in 10mm and 15mm I definitely feel 10mm is the better scale for it and my 10mm forces are collected with that in mind (I use 15mm for IABSM which I feel is the optimum scale for that but 10mm works well for it too).

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

As a side note the Warmaster and Blitzkrieg Commander series of games were designed with 10mm in mind.
Having played BKC in 10mm and 15mm I definitely feel 10mm is the better scale for it and my 10mm forces are collected with that in mind (I use 15mm for IABSM which I feel is the optimum scale for that but 10mm works well for it too).

Don't know about Warmaster but I agree completely on the BKC/IABSM points.

Regards

Edward

[Luddite]

Interestingly the 'IABSM chaps' at the club appear to have been running it in 10mm for the last couple of weeks.

While i think the rules ore pretty dire (they love 'em so horses for courses), in 10mm the game looked jolly nice.  Better than the usual 28mm they seem to use.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Interestingly the 'IABSM chaps' at the club appear to have been running it in 10mm for the last couple of weeks.

While i think the rules ore pretty dire (they love 'em so horses for courses), in 10mm the game looked jolly nice.  Better than the usual 28mm they seem to use.

I'd certainly struggle to do IABSM in 28mm :-) .  In 10mm I've got my Western Desert stuff being based up as four figures per 4cm x 2cm base.  This gives a section of 8 figures about 9-10cm including the interval between bases.    The vehicles are smaller in relation to the total table area as well which helps with potential 'wheel to wheel' syndrome.

While I really like IABSM it's certainly true they're not to everybody's taste and I'd hate to be in a position where anyone is advocating a 'one true rules' approach.   You should see the number of different rule sets I've got on my shelves.

Regards

Edward