Franco-Prussian War...

[nikharwood]

...is a conflict that I keep coming back to, but have never actually got round to building forces for [nevermind actually gaming it!]...

I know that I'd like to build forces for the winter - and potentially use Black Powder [and/or the FPWarmaster variant] to game this. My question - for the cognoscenti here - is: what's a good starting-point? Either an archetypal battle, or balanced [ish] opposing forces, or a definitive web-source for me to go do my own legwork [sometimes Google is an arse and throws up way too many possibilities!]

I'm thinking of using the FPW starter armies as a, well, starter point...thoughts / comments / ideas mucho appreciatedo 

[Le Manchou]

If it is for the winter period of the war, I would recommand to do the Ist bavarian corps (2 inf divisions and a cuirassier brigade), one prussian division (the 17th or 22nd) and a cavalry division (the 4th for example). For the French,
two republican corpses (ie around 6 divisions) and some fancy troops like zouaves pontificaux or volontaires de l'ouest. You can find Nafziger's OBs easily but with a lot of mistakes concerning the name of the generals. For accurate OBs you can go to the French National Library site:  www.gallica.bnf.fr  and download pdf books like 'Histoire générale de la Guerre Franco-Allemande' from Léonce Rousset in six volumes. It's in French but at the end of each volume there are appendix with all the OBs.

[Leman]

This is a period I have gamed for the last thirty years in three scales. Have now fixed on 10mm as my scale of preference. In theory it should be difficult for the French to win but in practice the Prussians seem to find it difficult to put in an attack because they can't use their small arms before they are in killing distance of the French Chassepots. Patience, and not a little skill, is needed to get the Prussian gunline up close and personal to support the PBI, but again the crews come under deadly Chassepot fire.

The Republican phase is a good perid to do. The previous suggested troops are the ones I am putting together for the Republican phase, Prussians led by the Grand Duke Of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. The Volontaires de Ouest and Zouaves Pontificaux are the same unit. To spice things up you could look at various units of Franc Tireurs, Spahis and French Foreign Legion.

I've tried the following rules over the years:
Warfare in the Industrial Age - divisional level and lots and lots of variable factors
They died for Glory - fun and simple
1870 - fantastic for OOBs etc - I'd go 40mm frontage in 10mm
Piquet - too long to play and can be incredibly frustrating - too much friction
Les Gens Braves - a great little set, although I don't use the recommended base sizes
To the Last Gaiter Button - my rules of preference - enables large scale 10mm battles - a Republican phase set is in preparation

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Hi fella,
What follows is a long monologue about my Franco-Prussian experiences...   

*Raises hand*
"Hello, my name is Will and I am a Franco-Prussian addict!"

I was NEVER interested in the period until the boys from Timecast invited me on one of their bi-annual trips to visit the battlefields of the Imperial campaign in 2009. I was taken along as the token French fan (after playing the French in their in-house campaign of 1859, they wanted someone incompetent (failed on that account, I won), and a long term fan of the Maximillian/Mexican Fiasco from my time at when I wargamed at Uni in Lancaster & it was my Principles of War Army in 15mm)
We started at Mars-La-Tours, walking up von Bredlow's Death Ride - I was hooked, then I walked the Guards route into Saint-Privat and that was it! Bellemont & Sedan followed...

I on my return bought a Pendraken started pack of each army and Volley & Bayonet and have been hooked since! Now I've returned there, did Worth & stayed in Borny (an embarrassing retail park outside Metz).

Resources:
Osprey's uniform guides are good, (just read the correctins inside the cover of the French book carefully), they have have (so far) neglected the FPW as far as histories go, except for a general history of the war and a campaign volume on Gravelotte-Saint Privat (interesting google searchs for S-P, lead me to an ambient chill-out band, with a very cute lead singer from Switzerland, she's on i-Tunes too), if you want Imperial period, buy and read David Ascoli 'A Day of Battle'.

For the Republican period I'd use 'The Franco-Prussian War, 1870-71: v. 2: After Sedan. Helmuth Von Moltke and the Defeat of the Government of National Defence' by Quintin Barry (available in paperback from Amazon, but if you hunt hard enough you can find signed and numbered first editions of the hardback too). Good descriptions of the battles with well drawn maps and comprehensive orbats at the back. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-1870-71-Government-National/dp/1906033463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306757312&sr=8-2


You seriously cannot get better than Trevor Howard's 'Franco-Prussian war' for a general history. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-German-Invasion-1870-1871/dp/0415266718/ref=pd_sim_b_10

Rules:
I would seriously suggest:
Black Powder (you will need to tweak the ranges and artillery)
Volley & Bayonet (does have paperwork if you go over a Corps that is a pain)
To The Last Gaiter Button (Excellent campaign rules for the Imperial period and sieges, not sure about the combat, waiting for the Republican set now).

Starting Battles:
After visiting the battlefields, I went BIG into the Imperial period and bought French II Corps and Prussian III Corps, followed by X Corps. I 'inherited' the Wurrtenberg Division from a friend, and am now looking at French VI Corps, the Hessian and the Prussian Guard Corps. However, this is probably the wrong way to go, but good for Dave & Leon's business account...

If you are going Republican I'd seriously say go for the Campaign of the Loire and aim for the forces at Loigny, which was one of the most balanced encounter game with staggered reserves. Practical Wargamer ran a nice article on The Battle Of Loigny (but for the life of me I can't find it) which involved Bavarians, Prussians & Wurttenbergers, it also has a nice mix of the interesting French Republican forces such as the Papal Zouaves.

You will suffer from awful French moral, but good rifles, the Prussians cannot win unless their artillery is well handled, be prepared for losses!

If you buy a starter pack of Prussians that is a good mix (you will need more medium artillery and officers) of outstanding figures (as we all know), for the French make sure you ask for the right Cavalry for your army, they tend to default to Curraisiers, whose main role appears to have been to die in pointless charges! winter pack is good, main difference is lack of Eagles and nice warm bodies! Winter Prussians in greatcoats are a joy to paint, no piping, but watch for Wurttenberg cap piping, it's a nightmare!

Hope that helps
Mad Lemmey

[nikharwood]

Massively helpful - thanks chaps, much appreciated 

I'm happily tinkering with lists and heading towards the inevitable part-with-cash-and-wait-for-the-postman...unpack-and-realise-I-need-more...rinse and repeat 

[Shedman]

And if you haven't read it then get a copy of Zola's La Débâcle

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Good call...
and remember he was an infantry officer who was hotly engaged against the Hessians along the railway embankment in front of Amenvillies, his account of the fighting is fascinating.

[maciek]

Fistfull of links:

http://users.skynet.be/dodeluc/1870_2.html
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/charge.htm
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/forcesfr.htm
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/forcesde.htm
http://www.loire1870.fr/
http://www.debellum.org/war_of_1870.asp
http://www.debellum.org/chassepot.asp
http://www.debellum.org/the_dreyse_rifle.asp
http://www.debellum.org/pistols.asp
http://www.debellum.org/mitrailleuse.asp
http://www.debellum.org/sarrebourg.asp
http://www.debellum.org/Wissembourg.asp
http://www.debellum.org/Spicheren.asp
http://www.debellum.org/stprivatdiary.asp
http://woerth-en-alsace.com/franc/inder.htm
http://www.napoleon.org/fr/salle_lecture/articles/files/Apres_Sedan_poignante_odyssee1.asp#ancre0
http://www.napoleon.org/en/special_dossier/chalons/homepage/home.html

[mollinary]

As a wargamer I don't think you can do better as a start on this period than getting a copy of Bruce Weigle's 1870 Grand Tactical Rules.  It is massively more than a rule set.  It has a shed load of detailed scenarios, including 4-5 from the Republican period, it has orders of battle, historical information,  and a superb bibliography.  This is something Bruce does really well, it is not just a list of books, it is a collection of dozens of helpful mini reviews.  Whether you like the rules or not, this is a must!

Mollinary

[NTM]

The whole wars of German unification has fascinated me for years but I've never actually got round to gaming it either. Was planning ACW as my quick start BP period but may go for this instead. Will probably start with one of the German states which can be used for and against the Prussians. Does Nafziger have any OOB's at CARL?

[Chad]

NTM

The for and against option is a good one and OOB for the Bavarian and Federal forces of 1866 are available in several works. However, bear in mind that in some cases the uniforms are not the same. For example, the Bavarians fought in a cap in 1866 and the helmet in 1870. Luckily both styles are available from Pendraken. Same applies to the Saxons.

Chad

[NTM]

the Bavarians fought in a cap in 1866 and the helmet in 1870. 

I'm aware of differences like that but copromises need to be made somewhere, it's a bit like the bicorne/shako or habit/spencer options with French Napoleonics. I seem to recall the Prussians changed from various facing/strap colours to all red or some such during the 1860's too.

[NTM]

Well the topic below about Saxons in 1866 & 1870 has given a few pointers and has answered my question about Nafziger. Lots has been downloaded for consideration and I think I'm officially distracted from WWII for a while.

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2644.0

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Height of Prussian helmet changes too between 1866 & 1870 (infacy some units were still in teh old lids, especially the Hessians)...

[NTM]

Height of Prussian helmet changes too between 1866 & 1870

How noticeable is that in 10mm