Difference between initiative and commanded Fire

[Mike L]

Hi Mark,

Just getting into these rules after finding my box of modern 6mms from my university days that have somehow become a historical period. The enamel paints seemed to have withstood the 30+ years well but the basing that we used in those days was terrible, all hail modern MDF basing.

Am I reading this correctly, that in the initative phase each unit firing does so individually at the nearest target, so if multiple units have the same target at the beginning then -
1st unit shooting can suppress the target if it gets the right dice.
The 2nd unit firing could, if it hits and doesn't kill cause another suppression test which could cause the target to fall back which could mean it may no longer be an eligible target.
A 3rd or subsequent units if still in the imitative range and its the nearest target, could shoot at it again and repeat until it is dead fallen back over 10 or run out of firing units.
Because ATGWs can't fire in this phase there is no chance of the target evading out of range so that is one less complication.

However if using commanded fire from an actual order all units shooting at it, wither its the nearest target or not,  would combine their attack dice into one big roll of many dice and if they don't kill it could only cause a suppression but not a fall back without a 2nd order to fire.

Is this correct? There does seem to be some interesting intricacies in these rules that need some close reading and I am still trying to work out basic tactics beyond drive up and long range tank fire.

Mike L

[Big Insect]

Comments below - in-line Mike. The way to think of Initiative fire is that the guys on the ground are reacting to immediate enemy activity/threats - so do so on 'local' orders or under their own steam (own initiative).

Hi Mark,

Just getting into these rules after finding my box of modern 6mms from my university days that have somehow become a historical period. The enamel paints seemed to have withstood the 30+ years well but the basing that we used in those days was terrible, all hail modern MDF basing.

>IMHO basing even vehicles is a good thing for smaller scales - it aids handling and finding them on the table when it comes to packing things away! As a 'tip' I base my IFVs & APCs on the same base frontage as the Infantry or weapons teams they are carrying. It means you always have space for the infantry to dismount (debus) in front of their vehicles, which can support them overhead.

Am I reading this correctly, that in the initiative phase each unit firing does so individually at the nearest target [>yes - however - all firing on a single target must be declared at the same time - so if (for example) you have 3 MBTs with a single enemy MBT within Initiative range you must state at the outset how many of them are going to fire on the target MBT. You cannot then drop one or two of them if the first lot of shooting from the 1st MBT gets lucky and KO's the target MBT on the first set of dice roles. It avoids the situation where a player might pick upon a target unit with a lot of his units, and if he gets lucky and KO's it in the first round of shooting, he then drops the other units and picks on a new target - if that makes sense? If you have multiple targets at the same range within your initiative range, you choose which one to fire at, but could split the fire against each of them, by having separate MBTs shooting at each.], so if multiple units have the same target at the beginning then -
1st unit shooting can suppress the target if it gets the right dice [>No - as all shooting is considered to be simultaneous in this situation - so if you have 3 MBTs shooting with 6 shots - you need to roll all 18 attack dice as your first turn of initiative fire. Of course you don't have to fire in the initiative phase. You can hold some back to see what happens and then fire them without command penalty in the Command phase - should you need to.].

The 2nd unit firing could, if it hits and doesn't kill cause another suppression test which could cause the target to fall back which could mean it may no longer be an eligible target [> See above - this would now need to be a round of Commanded shooting ]

A 3rd or subsequent units if still in the initiative range and its the nearest target, could shoot at it again and repeat until it is dead fallen back over 10 or run out of firing units.[> as above - all the initiative shooting on a single enemy target unit within initiative range is resolved at once]

Because ATGWs can't fire in this phase there is no chance of the target evading out of range so that is one less complication.

However if using commanded fire from an actual order all units shooting at it, wither its the nearest target or not,  would combine their attack dice into one big roll of many dice and if they don't kill it could only cause a suppression but not a fall back without a 2nd order to fire. [Yes, you are correct here ... but it works the same way with initiative fire as well. The only time it differs is support fire or defensive fire during an assault - where the supporting units can fire in support of a number of different assaults/defenses - but even here, all the attack dice are totalled up at the same time ]

Is this correct? There does seem to be some interesting intricacies in these rules that need some close reading and I am still trying to work out basic tactics beyond drive up and long range tank fire.

> Generally Mike, the rules are designed to try and be consistent (where possible) - so even in Initiative fire, all shooting is deemed to be simultaneous - it avoids 'gamey' play and also speeds things up (as all dice against a single target can usually* be thrown at the same time).
*Where you are firing a mix of weapons with different hit factors or AT & AP at the same time, you should differentiate by using different coloured dice or you can thrown them separately to work out the different result. But even with a mix of one friendly unit firing AT and another only AP, you work out the effect at the same time - e.g. all the suppression dice from the AP shooting are added to any caused by the AT shooting.
I hope that is helpful?
Thanks
Mark

Mike L

[Mike L]

Thanks for that clarification Mark. I was confused by the remark under the Fall back section
"Note that a unit cannot be suppressed and fall back as a result of the same order . However a unit can become suppressed and fall back as result of enemy initiative actions"

It seemed to imply that firing in the initiative phase was different from the order phase especially when it states under firing that you "resolve the firing immediately before going on to the next unit".  But I was reading that as the firing unit not the target unit. 
It makes sense to keep it all the same.

It does seem to me that one of the the main tactics in this game is to try and get your opponent to squander their opportunity fire so that they cannot use it against your high value, sneaky units getting round their flank or they have to decide if their initiative phase more important. Or just dissuade them from using it at all because there might be a better target later, giving you a free reign till your command fails.   

[Big Insect]

Thanks for that clarification Mark. I was confused by the remark under the Fall back section
"Note that a unit cannot be suppressed and fall back as a result of the same order . However a unit can become suppressed and fall back as result of enemy initiative actions"

> good 'spot' Mike - I was wondering if, in theory it is a possible outcome - as a unit might become exposed to multiple initiative fire. Take this example:
Tank A is shot at (as an Initiative action) by enemy tank 01 and it is suppressed
Tank B on the flank of Tank A is shot at by enemy tank 02 but it is destroyed by this separate initiative shooting
This 'exposes' Tank A to initiative fire from enemy tank 03 (who's line of sight had previously been blocked by Tank B ) allowing enemy tank 03 to shoot at Tank A (an acceptable separate shot as previously enemy tank 03 could not see Tank A ).
If enemy tank 03 suppresses Tank A (again) it will have to fall back.

Such a scenario is possible - as you don't have to nominate to fire tank 03 at Tank A (its original nearest target) initially. But if Tank B is destroyed & Tank A is now in LoS/LOF and within initiative range, enemy tank 03 can now opt to initiative fire as it is a newly exposed target.

However, it's a pretty spurious justification on my past for sloppy wording    - well spotted - I can pick that up in the Errata, to ensure it is less confusing.[/i]

It seemed to imply that firing in the initiative phase was different from the order phase especially when it states under firing that you "resolve the firing immediately before going on to the next unit".  But I was reading that as the firing unit not the target unit. 
It makes sense to keep it all the same.

It does seem to me that one of the the main tactics in this game is to try and get your opponent to squander their opportunity fire so that they cannot use it against your high value, sneaky units getting round their flank or they have to decide if their initiative phase more important. Or just dissuade them from using it at all because there might be a better target later, giving you a free reign till your command fails.

> I'd agree totally. Concentration of fire is also critical - having a 'layered' zone of fire is also very important. It is why units like Mortars & ATGWs are classified as independent units (so no Command penalties for distance) and have long ranges. Set them up back near your table edge, then set your medium range ATGS or even AT Guns (if you have them) closer and then RCLR and finally Infantry with IATW. A perfect zone of fire ... until that cunning opponent drops smoke to obscure his advance - usually between the mid-range ATGW and the RCLRs and Infantry 
 

Welcome to the forum and glad you appear to be getting to grips with the rules.
The idea of the Commander series is that core basic mechanisms remain constant across all the era's - BKC (WW2), CWC (Cold War) and even FWC (Sci-Fi or distant future). I recon I can role it back to cover WW1 (Great War Commander as well) in time.
BR
Mark