Low Profile

[Timecommander]

A German StuG assault gun is a low profile target and all direct fire would deduct -1d6. This is on page 78 under special abilities, yet on page 8 under Profile it states that the -1d6 modifier for shooting at a low profile target only applies if that target is in a Low/High terrain feature. So my question is, if I fire on a StuG which is in the open and not in a Low/High terrain feature do I still have to deduct the -1d6.
Cheers
John

[Maraviglia]

As I understand it the P8 Profile section is listing the general "height" of units and only mentions that buildings are classed as "high". Most AFVs are "Average" so the fact that the StuG is an AFV but also built with a low profile is worth mentioning on P78.
All of this is before any terrain considerations though and if I understand correctly the low profile and low terrain will only affect your LoS.

[dylan]

I'm not sure where you're getting the modifier you say you're getting from page 8.  I can't see it there at any point on that page.  Can you explain?

[Timecommander]

On page 8, the first paragraph underneath the profile chart states" The -1d6 modifier for shooting at a low profile target only applies if that target is in a Low or High area terrain feature, behind a Linear obstacle or Dug-in." My question was if a Low profile vehicle is in the open, do you ignore the -1d6.

[Ithoriel]

My question was if a Low profile vehicle is in the open, do you ignore the -1d6.

Yes. A StuGIII may have a lower profile than most AFV's but it's still bloomin' obvious in the middle of a field :-)


At least, that's how we've always played it.

[Orcs]

While I am not familiar with this version of the rules (I still use BKC2), I would say logically you do ignore the modifier in this case, as even a very low-profile Hetzer is 7 feet high or even a 6Pdr A/Tank gun is fairly obvious in the open.

[Timecommander]

Thanks for the replies.
I like these rules, but I Don't find fourth addition as easy to follow as earlier editions.
There are around an extra pages 20 pages to start with, Recon is a prime example, 4 pages against half a page in the edition we were using.  I wouldn't have needed to ask this question if the rules stated you deduct -1d6 if your target was Low Profile in cover. In Special Abilities(Page 78)it states All direct shooting at a Low Profile target subtracts -1d6 from the attack value, clearly not.
Thanks again, rant over.

[John Cook]

On page 8, the first paragraph underneath the profile chart states" The -1d6 modifier for shooting at a low profile target only applies if that target is in a Low or High area terrain feature, behind a Linear obstacle or Dug-in." My question was if a Low profile vehicle is in the open, do you ignore the -1d6.

Speaking as an innocent bystander who doesn't use these rules, is not the word 'only' fundamental here.  By definition it excludes everything except the four conditions.  So, the 1d6 modifier only applies if the low profile target is:

A.  In a low area terrain feature.
B.  In a high area terrain feature.
C.  Behind a linear obstacle.
D.  Dug-in

I have no idea what constitutes either a low or high area terrain feature but it seems clear that the modifier doesn't apply if the target is in the open. 


 

[Big Insect]

Speaking as an innocent bystander who doesn't use these rules, is not the word 'only' fundamental here.  By definition it excludes everything except the four conditions.  So, the 1d6 modifier only applies if the low profile target is:

A.  In a low area terrain feature.
B.  In a high area terrain feature.
C.  Behind a linear obstacle.
D.  Dug-in

I have no idea what constitutes either a low or high area terrain feature but it seems clear that the modifier doesn't apply if the target is in the open. 
 

That is Correct ('only' is the critical word).
Cheers folks

Mark

[Amra]

Hi all ,
Can I confirm this please ?
I thought the description "low profile" applied to infantry etc and they only benefited if the p8 requirements applied.
Other units ,however, can have the ability "Low profile " and they always benefit because  "All direct shooting at a Low-Profile target subtracts 1d6 from the attack value." p 78
There's no mention of requirements in the description of the ability

[Big Insect]

Hi all ,
Can I confirm this please ?
I thought the description "low profile" applied to infantry etc and they only benefited if the p8 requirements applied.
Other units ,however, can have the ability "Low profile " and they always benefit because  "All direct shooting at a Low-Profile target subtracts 1d6 from the attack value." p 78
There's no mention of requirements in the description of the ability

I am at a disadvantage at present as I am without my rules book - for the next few weeks - being away on holiday.
I suspect that you are correct and that the wording you have quoted above makes a lot of sense.  But I will not be able to verify this against the actual rules or errata for a while. Apologies for that.
Cheers
Mark

[petedavies]

OK now I am a bit confused (not unusual, sad to say...)

Does the "subtract 1d6 from the attack value" modifier stated on P.78 apply to ALL "low profile" units, including those specified in the table on P.8 ??

I had assumed this was NOT the case, and the "subtract 1d6" ONLY applied to units with "low profile" specifically granted as a "Special Ability".

My reasoning was that the P.8 list was primarily about visibility, spotting, recce etc, and also that all AP fire values had been calculated with the "typical" target factored in to the numbers - therefore AP fire against an infantry base (the "typical" case) would NOT get an additional -1d6 modifier, but AT fire against a StuG III (another "typical" case) WOULD get -1d6.

Cheers,

Pete

[Amra]

Yeah , I think the same
They must be different because otherwise why have low profile as a special ability at all ?
I figure stuff designated "low Profile" in their abilities take advantage of folds in the ground etc that the table doesn't display
We play Western Desert, there's very little terrain ,linear or otherwise so it would never get used otherwise
The other units ( like infantry) need terrain or digging in to activate their low profile bonus

[Big Insect]

Yeah , I think the same
They must be different because otherwise why have low profile as a special ability at all ?
I figure stuff designated "low Profile" in their abilities take advantage of folds in the ground etc that the table doesn't display
We play Western Desert, there's very little terrain ,linear or otherwise so it would never get used otherwise
The other units ( like infantry) need terrain or digging in to activate their low profile bonus

You are correct AMRA - it can however be confusing that a Low Profile special ability has a different result than units that have 'inherent' Low Profile - but it is to stop this potential issue of a unit being impossible to hit.

As I say, I'll review it again once I get back after my holiday. Contrary to popular belief - I dont keep a copy of BKCIV or CWCII (or even FWC) with me at all times, and equally my memory is certainly not up to retaining all the various rules either     
Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

I think it would be better if the special ability is re-named to something other than "low profile".  Maybe "low slung"?

That would avoid all this confusion.