Match of the Day fiasco

[flamingpig0]

People may find this from Michael Rosen of interest

[fsn]

I'm very bored with this now, but I would point out the difference between for example, declaring people born in the country, or those who have taken legal routes into the country and those who have used illegal methods to enter the country. 

Sort of in the name isn't it?

Shamima Begum rejected the country and joined a terrorist organisation (I do think she should be let back in btw); Windrush is as far as I can see it a massive c**k-up and failure of process; everybody costs something - that is why we pay taxes. The "Fremdmoral" is a poor comparison. I suspect the poor illegal miogrant is given a bag and told to take it across. Certainly that is what happens on the US-Mexico border.

As for "culture war", I go back to my "mote in the eye" comparison.

All in all a pretty poor reach by Mr Rosen.

 

[John Cook]

All in all a pretty poor reach by Mr Rosen.
 

Yes, it is and I agree that it is getting tediously repetitive.  Somebody without Rosen's hard-left credentials would have been less obvious.    I often listen to Rosen's 'Word of Mouth' on Radio 4 of an evening when I'm painting figures, when my wife is watching some ghastly programme on the TV. 
Rosen's an interesting person to listen to, and he has some equally interesting guests on his programme, but I do so in the knowledge that he is a hard-left activist so when he says stuff like this I'm reminded of Mandy Rice Davies, '"Well he would, wouldn't he?"' 
Rosen's parents were Communists and by his own admission their politics were a significant influence on him.  Rosen was sacked from the BBC decades ago for views that were even too far to the left for them and has been free lance ever since.   
He is a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn who he described as "a beacon of hope in the struggle against emergent far-right nationalism, xenophobia and racism in much of the democratic world". 
One might as well invoke Tommy Robinson, or any other hard-right activist, in an attempt to demonstrate the opposite view.

[Gwydion]

Sort of in the name isn't it?

It is - the problem is what does it mean? What is the legal definition of 'illegal immigrant'?

According to Oxford University's Migration Observatory (not to be confused with Migration Watch, a horse of a very different colour):

In the UK, there is no single legal or accepted definition of an 'irregular migrant', also known as an 'unauthorised', 'undocumented', 'non-registered', or 'illegal' immigrant

Mishael Rosen probably reaches too easily for the word 'Nazi' in my view. Lineker's critics like this and inserted it themselves into his statement because it allows the spoken or unspoken 'Godwin's Law' sneer to be aired regardless of whether the terminology is appropriate or not, in an attempt to undermine his case.
Having said that you will unsurprised that I agree wholeheartedly with Rosen that the general language and  climate in 1930s Germany exhibited some uncanny parallels with rhetoric in use in the UK today.

[Leon]

...or those who have taken legal routes into the country and those who have used illegal methods to enter the country. 

I think that's the bit that gets confused in the media and deliberately misconstrued by government.  Most of the people in the small boats are coming from countries with no process in place for them to make a claim for asylum, and the government has avoided setting up any processing centres for them to do so on continental Europe. 

So lacking any legal route to do it, they're obviously taking the only option available to them and crossing the channel.  As long as they declare themselves when they get here, I don't think that's classed as illegal entry for asylum?  Economic migrants are different process entirely though.

That's what frustrates me about the whole thing.  We need to stop people risking their lives and giving their life savings to people smugglers to make these crossings, but putting legislation in place that targets them rather than those who facilitate their travel, just seems the wrong approach to me. 

It's the same as the Rwanda scheme, another distraction method that wastes time and resources.  It's got a maximum of 200 people on the initial agreement and for each immigrant we deport there we're taking one in exchange, so the whole policy has got a net result of zero.

[Gwydion]

A better way of reducing 'economic migration' and doing some real good would be to invest in those countries and encourage the young people to stay and grow their economies instead of seeking pie in the sky here.
I don't mean giving them 'Aid', I mean investment in infrastructure and business to grow their economies, not exploitation by global corporations.
Then we could concentrate on welcoming asylum seekers and helping them, without the distraction of cheap shot comments about 'swarms' overwhelming Blighty.

[flamingpig0]

Yes, it is and I agree that it is getting tediously repetitive.  Somebody without Rosen's hard-left credentials would have been less obvious.    I often listen to Rosen's 'Word of Mouth' on Radio 4 of an evening when I'm painting figures, when my wife is watching some ghastly programme on the TV. 
Rosen's an interesting person to listen to, and he has some equally interesting guests on his programme, but I do so in the knowledge that he is a hard-left activist so when he says stuff like this I'm reminded of Mandy Rice Davies, '"Well he would, wouldn't he?"' 
Rosen's parents were Communists and by his own admission their politics were a significant influence on him.  Rosen was sacked from the BBC decades ago for views that were even too far to the left for them and has been free lance ever since. 
He is a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn who he described as "a beacon of hope in the struggle against emergent far-right nationalism, xenophobia and racism in much of the democratic world". 
One might as well invoke Tommy Robinson, or any other hard-right activist, in an attempt to demonstrate the opposite view.

hmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[John Cook]

hmm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Nonesense.  I was merely pointing out Rosen's credentials, which are matters of fact, and his consequent bias, which some people might not be aware of.  He is a poor witness whose views in this context are disingenuous claptrap and should be excluded from reasonable argument and not part of it, as should those of all extremists.  Got to admire your determination but I thought it was obvious.  It is best to be informed then one can 'aim-off'.  Are we done yet? 

[Gwydion]

I thought John's response to the Rosen piece was quite a good example of taking the man and not the ball .
It was a bit of a daft ad hominem.

Far easier to bluster about the politics of the man than address the facts.

Most people are surely aware of the politics of the author of that dangerous communist polemic 'We're Going On A Bear Hunt'?

[flamingpig0]

I thought John's response to the Rosen piece was quite a good example of taking the man and not the ball .
It was a bit of a daft ad hominem.

Far easier to bluster about the politics of the man than address the facts.

Most people are surely aware of the politics of the author of that dangerous communist polemic 'We're Going On A Bear Hunt'?

I don't think it is really fair to compare Rosen to  Tommy Robinson. I can't imagine him kicking a prone policeman in the face, something which Robinson was prosecuted for.

[Leon]

Let's keep things constructive guys, we've kept on topic nicely so far.

[jimduncanuk]

Can I suggest that we (you) suspend posting on this topic for a month so we can concentrate on toy soldiers.

[fsn]

Agreed. Well, until Donald Trump gets arrested anyway. 

[flamingpig0]

Agreed. Well, until Donald Trump gets arrested anyway. 

See you tomorrow, then.

[John Cook]

Let's keep things constructive guys, we've kept on topic nicely so far.

That would be good but it is difficult with all the red herrings.  I have tried as best I can to restrict my posts to the Lineker fiasco.  Lineker's relationship with the BBC is what it is, he either broke his 2020 contract or he didn't.  His remarks about Germany in the 1930s were just wrong and it is that which I object to most. 
I have to declare an interest.  This link is the list of British people honoured by Yad Vashem as Righteous Among the Nations https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/united-kingdom.pdf.  Ida and Louise Cook are my paternal aunts who rescued 26 Jewish families from Nazi Germany in the years prior to WW2.  They were the first British people so honoured.
I received their posthumous British Hero of the Holocaust medals from the then Prime Minister Gordon Brown in 2010.  So I think I know something about Nazism.
I cringe when I see and hear people make flippant comparisons to Nazi Germany because usually they have no idea what they are talking about and to those who think that what the British government is doing at the moment is in any way comparable, all I can say is go and stand on the Juden Rampe at Auschwitz Birkenau.
I'm now done with this thread.