1942 Soviet Battalion in BKC Battalion Scale ... ?

Started by balagan, 19 March 2022, 11:57:38 PM

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balagan

Hi. Although I've owned every version of BKC, I've never played it.  Now, for some reason, I fancy giving it a go. 

I prefer scenarios over pick up battles so I'm trying to wrap my head around how to map official historical orders of battle to BKC OOBs. Not that I'm going to use an official OOB for the actual scenario, but this exercise will help me understand which bits of the historical OOB turn into BKC stands and which bits get ignored.

For a variety of reasons my interest is battalion scale so stand=squad (not the normal regimental scale where stand=platoon). Note: I've got a few of the MicroMark OOBs, but they are regimental scale so only help to a certain extent.

My question is ... what BKC order of battle would you create out of the following official OOB?  Some things are obvious, e.g. Battalion HQ becomes CO and Rifle Squad becomes Infantry Base.  But some things are less clear.  I'm particularly curious about:
- what becomes a BKC command unit; the Battalion HQ for sure (CO), but what about Company HQ and/or Platoon HQ? 
- If there are no Platoon HQ then the Company HQ have nine Rifle Squads in their formation, without a Platoon HQ ... is that okay in BKC?
- What about those two or four horse wagons and one horse carts?  BKC allows for them but would  you take them?
- What about the non-combat elements (signal, medical, train)?
- What about that anti-tank rifle platoon?
- The 50mm mortars?
- etc, etc.   

So please help me out with converting TO04/551 into a BKC battlegroup. TO04/551 is the  Soviet Table of Organisation for an Infantry Regiment from December 1942. For this exercise I'm only interested in the Infantry Battalion bit:

1 x Battalion HQ (3 officers)
1 x Signal Platoon (8 officers and men, 1 horse, 1 cart)
1 x Medical Platoon (5 men; 1 horse; 1 cart)
1 x Train Platoon (12 officers and men; 14 horses; 4 wagons; 3 carts)

3 x Rifle Companies each with:
-   1 x Company HQ (5 officers and men)
-   1 x Medical Squad (5 men)
-   1 x Mortar Platoon (7 officers and men; 2 50mm mortars)
-   1 x Machine gun Squad (4 men; 1 medium machine gun)
-   3 x Rifle Platoons each with:
-   -   1 x Platoon HQ (4 officers and men)
-   -   4 x Rifle Squads (each 9 men)

1 x Machine gun company with:
-   1 x Company HQ (4 officers and men)
-   3 x Machine gun Platoons each with:
-   -   1 x Platoon HQ (3 officers and men; 3 horses; 1 wagon; 1 cart)
-   -   3 x Machine gun Squads (each 5 men; 1 medium machine gun)

1 x Anti-tank rifle Platoon with:
-   1 x Platoon HQ (2 officers and men; 2 horses; 1 wagon)
-   3 x Anti-tank rifle Squad (each 7 men; 3 anti-tank rifles)

1 x Anti-tank gun Platoon with:
-   1 x Platoon HQ (5 officers and men)
-   2 x Anti-tank gun Squads (each 6 men; 1 45mm anti-tank gun; 4 horses; 1 wagon)

1 x Mortar company with:
-   1 x Company HQ (3 officers and men)
-   3 x Mortar Platoons each with:
-   -   1 x Platoon HQ (4 officers and men; 3 horses; 3 carts)
-   -   3 x Mortar Squads (each 5 men; 1 82mm mortar)

Thanks

Steven

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Steven most players use one base as a platoon. You seem to want one as section. No problem. The Train and Medical sections have no effect in the rules so any representation is purely decorative. The Btn HQ and signals "platoon" combine to give the CO base. The Rifle Coy would have an HQ, a weapons section (SFMG and lt Mtrs[these are not represented in the rules]) and 3 Rifle platoons of 4 bases each. Support weapons slightly more difficult. You could go for one tube/gun per base but that may overpower things. I'd use one base for each ATR section, and a have every MG AT gun and medium mortar as an individual base. If you follow that line add 2 more HQ's for the Mortar Coy and MG Coy. The mortars could be used off table at your level use the CO and HQ's as observers.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
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fred.

What Ian says is all good. 

If you want to field a full battalion at 1 stand = 1 squad you are going to have a lot of troops on the table. 

With all conversions from real ToE to game you need to makes some decisions on what = what. The first one is that 1 squad = 1 stand - which gives a solid starting point. It is also then worth thinking about guns, vehicles etc. With 1 squad = 1 stand. I would either go with 1 real gun = 1 game gun or perhaps 2 real guns = 1 game gun. 

I've seen both ratios used in other conversions. 

Once you have decided on these it becomes fairly easy. Only fairly because there are always strange oddities. 

Here is my example (at 1 platoon to 1 stand) for a German Regiment http://www.kerynne.com/games/GermanRegt.html

I've aggregated some support weapons together as they were distributed in small numbers to platoons.

As for weapons like 5cm mortars - they aren't represented in the standard BKC rules as they would just be considered part of the platoon fire power (and they weren't that effective). If you want to field them separately, perhaps give them 1/40 fire power and 3 hits. Or treat them as an add-on to an infantry stand, giving 1 extra firepower? 
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balagan

Thanks both.

yup, for this exercise I'm interested in Battalion scale (one stand = one squad).  I understand the value of the standard BKC Regimental scale (one stand = one platoon), but for this project it has to be Battalion scale.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead says ..

QuoteThe Rifle Coy would have an HQ, a weapons section (SFMG and lt Mtrs[these are not represented in the rules]) and 3 Rifle platoons of 4 bases each.

That makes sense. But I'm left wondering about the Platoon HQs. Would you represent these?  Is it HQ (Company HQ) and 12  infantry bases (3 x 4 Rifle Squads)?  Or are another three HQ added to that mix for the Platoon Commanders?

Using Regimental scale OOBs as a guideline, the lower level HQs (Company HQs) seem to be optional (MicroMark OOBs) or excluded (Fred's example of the Late War German Grenadier Regiment).

By the way Fred, your picture of the German OOB is great. Thanks for sharing.

I notice the MicroMark OOBs have limbers/wagons and carts as tows/transport for heavy weapons at Regimental scale.  Fred's German OOB also has a wagon in each Rifle company, and my guess these are also transport for the MGs (could be wrong). Is that a pattern ... heavy weapons get the appropriate wagons and carts?  In the Soviet TO04/551, that would suggest 45mm anti-tank guns, medium machine guns, and on-table 82mm mortars would all get wagon or cart bases as transport/tows. Is that right?

fred said ...
QuoteWith all conversions from real ToE to game you need to makes some decisions on what = what. The first one is that 1 squad = 1 stand - which gives a solid starting point.

The beauty of the Soviet OOBs is they define everything as "squads" e.g. machine gun squad (1 x MMG, mortar squad (1 x 82mm mortar, anti-tank gun squad (1 x 45mm gun).  So a simple model would  be to just believe that and transfer it to BKC. So the MG Company in BKC would be 1 x HQ Base, 9 x MG Base, 3 x Wagons, 3 x Carts.

But the simple "Soviets call it a squad so it is a BKC base" mapping might be too generous for BKC. And there is the odd ratio from MGs to transport (9 x MG bases and 6 transport bases). What would you do? 

Cheers

Steven


Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

The HQ position is always tricky. 1 HQ per platoon is to many. Best solution for this would be 2 HQ's at company. Best solution for the medium mortars would be to use them as 3 weak artillery batteries off table I suspect. MG's is tricky but even using one base per platoon there would be 3 bases so gop with 9 if the budget permits.
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stevothedivo

Happy New Year folks - spot of threadomancy yet if I came across this thread...chances are someone else may down the track seeking BKC at Battalion scale.
I tend to play at this strategic level since the old site had the BKC Battlegroup builder annual subscription!  :D

Specifically (and I can grab the minis out to set this up and take a picci...but it may not be appropriate on Pendraken's own site as I have medieval miniatures and modern of theirs - but my WWII collection is in other scales as I started it before I discovered their fine wares..)
 =)
Were we to message in real life and be local and offer a game this coming weekend and you sent this list for the scenario you had in mind to have a grind at, I'd  lay out the following to translate it as BKCIV throwdown scenario game

1000pt BKCIV - Infantry Regiment 12/42+
CO (CV8) - 90

3x Support MG - 120
3x AT Inf - 150
3x 45mm AT w/Mules and Horses - 210
3x 82mm Mortars w/Mules and Horses - 240

Inf HQ (CV7) - 30
3x Infantry - 120
1x Support MG - 40

Abstracted, indeed - organic 50mm are folded into the Reg Inf stats, though I had thought of making these Veteran instead for 4/30.
Then I reasoned adding a single organic MG base to that "command" made more sense. And placed these under the command of an organic (I use CV8 as Regimental Command assets - otherwise armor, artillery, infantry...everything Ruski gets CO 8 and HQ 7) command "centre". Which is the Battalion scale 40x20mm 10mm bases allow in my humble opinion.

Still a clean 1k Soviet list - piece of cake to slap an armored branch and some meaty Organs and Bells - 3k wouldn't be hard to scale this up to.

Look forth to seeing if you've since progressed this project and what you settled on and painted (if anything) after my necromantic post  ;D

Thanks gents - happy everythings - Steven
 :)

 
Never trust a camel or any other creature that can go without a drink longer than a week.<br />Never drive a car when you're dead - Tom Waits (Telephone Call from Istambul)

stevothedivo

06 January 2023, 02:31:34 AM #6 Last Edit: 06 January 2023, 02:57:14 AM by stevothedivo
Quote from: balagan on 20 March 2022, 09:43:17 AMfor this exercise I'm interested in Battalion scale (one stand = one squad). 
Regarding this, as others have mentioned - it can definitely be done. It's oodles of fun.
But I've never played down to this scale with 40x20mm bases - my miniatures are on 22mm bases so it's a heck of a lot easier to do what you're trying to achieve. Maybe it's a "perception" issue - for me - but BKCIV wouldn't be the ruleset that came to mind if I wanted to play a battalion 1:1 game for a single reason - in order to do that I'd have to set aside the commander limitations (and the CV/activation/hits mechanics that derive from the Warmaster engine the game is built on - by which piont..... am I really playing BKCIV........

By that point - I'd probably just play another game.


Crossfire is pretty awesome if you've tried that - or GHQ's Micro Armor rules are basically built from the ground up to play the list you originally shared 1:1 scale.

BKC - guess I've been enchanted since I first began playing it by its level of abstraction.
Like translating original list whittled down to a square 1k army of 2 commanders and 16 bases. Piece of cake. A long weekend gig.  :)
It's the game system I play when I'm keen on the "bird's eye view" of moving flanks, taking positions, shifting axes...artillery strikes - back and forth of tank battles...indiscriminate misconduct.........than the detail of what a specific a specific Senior or Junior Commander in a game like TFL's Chain of Command does that turn.

Happy gaming!  >:<
Never trust a camel or any other creature that can go without a drink longer than a week.<br />Never drive a car when you're dead - Tom Waits (Telephone Call from Istambul)

fred.


Quote1000pt BKCIV - Infantry Regiment 12/42+
CO (CV8) - 90

3x Support MG - 120
3x AT Inf - 150
3x 45mm AT w/Mules and Horses - 210
3x 82mm Mortars w/Mules and Horses - 240

Inf HQ (CV7) - 30
3x Infantry - 120
1x Support MG - 40

:)


Hey Stevo!

Am I reading the above right, 2 HQs, 13 support stands and 3 infantry stands?

I really struggling to see where you get this as a translation of the original ask, I'd say 9 Inf stands would be more representative, and only 1 AT Rifle and 1 AT Gun, 3MGs and 3 Mortars would be a translation of the support troops. 
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kustenjaeger

When I used to build BKC formations I would convert Shtat 04/551 at one stand = one platoon as follows (following Zaloga Red Army Handbook p.26) at full TO&E.

Rifle Regiment HQ - 1 x CO stand
Recon platoons - 1 x recon infantry stand total
Pioneer/chemical platoons - maybe 1 x engineer stand
SMG company - 3 x SMG stands
AT battery - allocated out to battalions (see below)
AT rifle company - 3 AT rifle stands
Infantry gun battery - 1 x 76mm M27 + horse limber
Mortar battery  - 1 x 120mm mortar (usually off table)

3 x rifle battalions, each
 1 x HQ stand (bn commander)
 0-1 x HQ stand (senior company commander? - basically in BKC need the second HQ)
 9 x infantry stands
 3 x MMG stands (merging MG company and integral MMGs)
 1 x AT rifle stand
 1 x 45mm AT gun stand (sharing regimental and battalion ATG platoons)
 2 x 82mm mortar stands (9 tubes)

Plus: allocated divisional artillery assets, some in direct fire support.
 
Edward
 

stevothedivo

Fair point yes. Probably shouldn't post at 4am - 9 infantry stands and a single support stand for the organic elements makes more sense.  8)
The HQs though....maybe if the additional stands brought the points to 2k - including another would make sense.
Yours and kustenjaeger's suggestions are correct.
PS great handle by the way (should mean something like Beach/Coastal Hunter? My German leaves a lot to be desired....but I remember Kust is seaside...)
Quote from: fred. on 06 January 2023, 08:07:02 AMHey Stevo!

Am I reading the above right, 2 HQs, 13 support stands and 3 infantry stands?

I really struggling to see where you get this as a translation of the original ask, I'd say 9 Inf stands would be more representative, and only 1 AT Rifle and 1 AT Gun, 3MGs and 3 Mortars would be a translation of the support troops.
Never trust a camel or any other creature that can go without a drink longer than a week.<br />Never drive a car when you're dead - Tom Waits (Telephone Call from Istambul)

kustenjaeger

The term 'Kustenjaeger' means literally coast hunter and was the name used by one of the units of the Brandenburgers which saw action in the Aegean including on Leros in 1943.

Edward