1809 Bavarians

[Shapur II]

Not sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough"

(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).

Mark

In my reading or 18th century rules I have seen that commanders were concerned about support distance between lines.  That distance increased as mobility and weapons ranges improved, so Wellington's 300 yards is would seem about right for the period.  Also,  I would imagine that 300 yeads in Western Europe likely provided for some form of cover. Good thought babout opening the lines to let fugitives through.  Several rule sets allow retiring units falling back to rally behind supports, but obviously those supports provide a perceived measure of safety.

Stu

[Gwydion]

Have a read of this:

Supports and Passage of lines
There is some reference to the intricacies of forming lines but it helps explain why troops were drawn up as they were and how they were drawn up. Most games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.

I'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.

[sultanbev]

Most games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.

Interesting. We allow passage of lines with a 3" deduction of movement, 6" for cavalry. (line speeds being 9" and 24" respectively). So as long as everyone is in the open and in order, it is maneagable, as long as you have space on the other side of the unit being passed through. BUT, if one unit is disordered, or the units are in rough terrain and not trained skirmishers, or one is green, then both units become disordered.

Our rules are based on the 2nd edition Regimental F&F converted to use for Napoleonics and colonial, with 1:20 figure ratio.

[Shapur II]

I'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.

Im reminded of my own evolutions on the drill square.  I understand it is not the same thing but the principle is the same.  Bodies of troops are being moved to preform specific tasks in specific places using a preordained set of commands.  Add enemy fire, units of differing sizes, officers guesstimating when and when to halt their piece of the puzzle and, in all likely hood an incomplete understanding of what the puzzle looks like.

That can result in total chaos on a parade square. I know frustrated RSM's have been known on more than one occasion to pass the order "Get the F@&#k! off of MY parade square". I'm sure there are French/Russiaan/Prussian/Austrian napoleonic equivalents.

 Now corners will be cut, troops will be pleasantly encouraged by their NCO's to move a bit more quickly enroute to over there by Captain so and so.  If they are any good they will find their companies and dress their ranks as professional soldiers.  Otherwise they could take a good deal of time to sort themselves out.

Most rules do not consider supports and combat results do not provide enough pushback/repulse results  and then do not require fresh units to come forward to continue the attack or protect those falling back. 

Stu

[John Cook]

Stewart, you asked about the use of fanions by the French infantry and when they were introduced.  The number of eagles was reduced to one per regiment by the Decree of December 1811.  Article 9 stated that the eagle was to be carried by the 1st Battalion with the remaining battalions having fanions "without inscription and to which no importance will be attached, nor any honors rendered".  Article 10 described the fanions as white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th and yellow for the 6th battalion.  They were carried on a plain staff with a spear point finial.

You also asked about the Bavarian army uniform and colours.  I don't know where 'cornflower blue' comes from because all my German sources talk about 'hellblau', or light-blue which, judging from artefacts in the Bavarian Army Museum, Ingolstadt, is actually closer to a mid-blue, like Vallejo Medium Blue 70-963.  Light-blue and white are the national colours of Bavaria. 

The Bavarian Army 1806-1813 by Peter Bunde, Markus Gaertner and Markus Stein, published by Zeughausverlag GmbH, Berlin, 2018 is worth a look.  It has a comprehensive text and is illustrated with photos and images of various artefacts and uniforms.  The authors know their stuff and it is about the best there is for the money.  The English translation can be had for about £25 from the usual outlets. 

Cantler's 'Der Bayerische Armee 1800 -1873' is also useful in this context.  Here is a link to it.

https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/Bavaria/Cantler/c_cantler.html

Hekkel's 'Trophies of the Wars of 1812-1813-1814 kept in the Kazan Cathedral' cover all the trophies taken by the Russians, including Bavarian ones, that were displayed in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Kazan in St Petersberg, in 1909.  Most have long since disappeared but they were illustrated in colour in Hekkel's work.  The Bavarian infantry colours are at pages 165-173.  This is the link to it.

Трофеи войн 1812-1813-1814 г., хранящиеся в Казанском соборе / - Геккель, Александр Иванович (1845-1908) - Cистема онлайн-просмотра (rusneb.ru)

Staffs appear to be plain wood which is how Rigondaud shows them in his Le Plumet Serie D plates on colours and standards, albeit influenced at least in part by Hekkel, and how Bunde et al describe them.

[Shapur II]

Stewart, you asked about the use of fanions by the French infantry and when they were introduced.  The number of eagles was reduced to one per regiment by the Decree of December 1811.  Article 9 stated that the eagle was to be carried by the 1st Battalion with the remaining battalions having fanions "without inscription and to which no importance will be attached, nor any honors rendered".  Article 10 described the fanions as white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th and yellow for the 6th battalion.

The Bavarian Army 1806-1813

John and others thanks for the information.  I have been led astray by the easily accessible sources like Osprey.  That said, why has their been such a debate about the issue?  I am able to find a copy of Bunde at Amazon with little difficulty.  Nor is it a challenge to find the correct?? paint

[/url]Untitled by Stu Gibson, on Flickr[/img]

I will still err to the lighter side because there are far too many blue troops on the battlefield, my tired old eyes need all the help they can get...

The fanion information will be of use for my Perry Waterloo French figures.  I drew the short straw and ended up with Prussians and a small force of French, well because, everyone has to paint French!


Speaking of the Bunde book, Amazon.ca  is bundling both the Bavarian and Saxon books.   As I will also be painting 1809 Saxons is that book worth the expenditure?

Stu

[John Cook]

Speaking of the Bunde book, Amazon.ca  is bundling both the Bavarian and Saxon books.   As I will also be painting 1809 Saxons is that book worth the expenditure?

It is a very good study, but of the army from 1810.  So not so much if your interest is 1809 specifically.

[Shapur II]

HI. Have ordered both as I am looking forward to the Peninsular war release.  I will be building elements of Rouyer's Division,

1st Brigade. -- General SCHWARZ (French).
1st Regiment of Nassau (no. 3 of the Confederation of the Rhine), Colonel von POLLNITZ.
4th Regiment of the Rhine (Saxon Duchies), Colonel von EGLOFFSTEIN.
2nd Brigade. -- Colonel von CHAMBAUD (of Anhalt).
5th regiment of the Rhine (Anhalt-Lippe), Colonel von CHAMBAUD.
6th Regiment of the Rhine (Schwarzburg-Waldeck-Reuss), Colonel von HEERINGEN.

Like I said I'll do anything to avoid Painting French figures dark blue.  Those figures will be painted. RED as. 2nd, 3rd and 4th Swiss

Stu