1809 Bavarians

[paulr]

One option for identifying units can be to use colour codes on the vertival back of the bases, this can be fairly discreate

I use labels that carry the key stats for the units as well as identifying them. But that is because our group plays a lot of different rule sets and not everyone can identify units based on their uniform

[Shapur II]

Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks

I found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening.  Can we trust Flag colours?  The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.

Are the two colours related?

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?
4. Where did "cornflower blue" come from. 

How many war-gamers have had the debate?  I suggest pints at 6 feet are the only way that this will be resolved!

PAINT BRUSHES DOWN! Back to the time machine design!

[Rhys]

I'll approach this from a chemistry point of view.
French blue is indigo so a natural dye. This is a much darker colour than you might think with surviving examples a very dark blue after 200 years. Prussian blue was probably the first known synthetic dye and again is a very dark blue (and was known for 100 years before the Napoleonic wars). I'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table. I've used Tamiya dark sea grey for both as its very dark and has a blue tinge.. For the Bavarians I think the issue is probably going to be the dye fading, either due to the dye used or the dying process itself. I've used Tamiya sky blue though I think any mid blue would be OK.

[fsn]

I like your marker idea. Did you use regular rank and file figures? 

Doesn't really matter, I use a mix. They appear as single figures tagging behind the unit. They just happen to wear red, yellow or green coats. 

Also, did you create any skirmisher bases?

Yup. I'm based on 30x30mm, 9 figures (for Nobby's Napoleonic Rules), but light units are 30x10mm 3 figures. For light bttns I do keep some 30x20mm, 6 figure bases.

Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks

It looks cool on my table - so sue me!    I wanted them to stand out from the Wurttembergers that I have painted and the Poles that are to come ... and the Prussians.

And if I ever get round to doing French.

[fsn]

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 

[Shapur II]

the Poles that are to come

I forgot the Poles!  I think I need mores shades of blue.  Orrrrrr. I need to start with a far lighter shade for the Bavarians

[Shapur II]

Re fanions, do you mean the French ones

Mark

Missed this response. Question, colour of the Blue corduroy?  Careful this is a loaded topic...

Yes I did mean French Fanions.  If I understand correctly they were used as company identifiers, but I have no idea how they were used.

Stu

[DecemDave]

I'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table.

Not just on t'table: In the film "Waterloo" there is a scene where they can't make out if the new arrivals are French or Prussian. Presumably based on some memoir?  I believe there were Napoleonic "friendly fire" incidents. Likewise the "who is it?"  problem with D'Erlon at Ligny.  So even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started.  And how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?

[Zippee]

I found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening.  Can we trust Flag colours?  The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.

Are the two colours related?

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

It seems clear that previous Bavarian uniforms were a paler blue (ignoring Rumford for a moment) and that seems true of later uniforms (from what I understand. For certain cornflower blue is the colour associated with Bavaria.

Cornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago 

Given that, I don't think we can really say with any certainty that flag colour and 'Bavarian national colour' and uniform colour need match or be one with each other. I'd veer to the flags being the traditional cornflower.

Quite why the uniform coats of 1800 and 1806 and 1814 appear to be a distinctly darker shade of blue than we would expect is a mystery but the ones in the museums certainty are. Maybe that's time and chemicals, maybe they misread the dye mixing instructions and stuck with it, no idea. I've seen nothing to indicate it was deliberate - every statement I've seen alludes to 'traditional Bavarian cornflower' - only it ain't.

[Shapur II]

And how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?

Even modern uniforms fade with field use. I believed the materials industry coined the term colour fast.  Meaning looses its original colour fast. But please, my pedantry makes this challenging enough without needing 4-5 shades of "cornflower" blue.  This years recruits in one shade and the old salts in progressively faded versions of the same shade.  Hmmm...have we hit on a way to easily identify veteran and newly conscripted units on the table?  

Add to list.  Each nation comes with a shade chart to assist in identifying unit experience.  That means that the Old Guard will have lighter uniforms than the Bavarians.   

I'll get my hat...

So even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started.

Agreed. There were enough instances of confusion that more daring commanders have been known to use that as a ruse to gain entry to fortresses etc.  But we love the spectacle and pageantry of full strength units and pristine uniforms on our tables. The other thing is that painting the same shade of blue on hundred's of figures grows tiresome quickly.

[Shapur II]

[/quote]

Cornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago 

Ouch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.

[Westmarcher]

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?

I personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.

I painted my Bavarian contingent in light blue only to discover later that it was more of a mid-blue - someone, somewhere has sent many of us down the wrong path. When I started painting my French, I used Humbrol French Blue - again, wrong. As it turns out French uniforms were very dark (sure, the sun will fade this but not 'uniformly' so areas under armpits and knapsacks etc. will fade at a different rate). Apart from flags and the direction your troops are facing, your tabletop French will most likely have white breeches and your Prussians, grey (btw, I also paint the underneath of the bases a different colour for all of my figures, regardless of era, to help me quickly identify armies and individual units when storing them in the box after a game). 

How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate? One way for the French is to examine paintings painted by contemporary artists, i.e., guys who witnessed the real thing (and some of whom who actually served). Some will say that these paintings will have darkened over the years but many if not all have since been 'cleaned up' (i.e., restored). Here's a list of various artists' works to start your research off:-

Jacques-Louis David, Auguste Couder, F. Bouchot, Emile Jean Horacle Vernet, Antoine-Jean Gros, Jean-Baptiste Debret, etc.

Napoleon in his Study

Various French Napoleonic Artists

There's also Francois Gerard and Claude Gautherot.
 

[Zippee]

Ouch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.

No 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned

[Shapur II]

No 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned

Understood, when it comes to uniform colours this is all tongue in cheek anyways. We are painting toy soldiers after all and we could paint the figures any colour we like and create an imagination.  My 18th century imagination is located in a southern French wine region.  They use bad table wines as a source of dyes for their uniforms. 

[Shapur II]

I personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.

A warm hello to a fellow Scot. 

I struggle with painting and confess that, for me, getting figures on the table is my only goal. Your suggestion of examining period art is a good one, I had not thought of it. The research you do is really challenging.  Not much attention is paid to uniform details. 

Modern writers have worked to create a body of knowledge to support miniatures gamers. I have MAA 106, Bavarians from Osprey. Written by Otto von Pivka, I have yet to find any reference to a jacket colour in his uniform descriptions.  Breeches, facings, helmets, company designations, button colours, lace, all there.  Nothing on jacket colours.  There are 4 photos of tunics, all black and white images. 
There are also many period uniform plates but I find them overpriced and difficult to obtain. But then again, as uniforms are not a key interest beyond the perfunctory I really don't spend much time looking. Unfortunately, as I am finding out, the sources that are readily available often contain easily verifiable errors. 

I equate your focus on unis with my desire to understand and replicate combat and maneuver on the battlefield.  In reality I am striving to find a better model of what transpired daily on the battlefields of Europe. I need all the help I can get with uniforms...

[sultanbev]

Re French fanions, I was thinking of the battalion flags used by the 2nd-5th battalions of a regiment, not the company ones, can't help you with that one.
For my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag

Halberd pennants were:
1st Bttn: blue-red-blue horizontal
2nd Bttn: red-blue-red horizontal
3rd Bttn: red-blue-red-blue-red horizontal
4th Bttn: red/blue vertical
5th & 6th Bttns: ?

That aside all my Prussians, Brits in blue, French, Persians, whatever, in any scale, are all done in Miniature Paints MP23 Royal Blue. I don't bother with such pedantery for differing shade of blue colours. 200 years after the event, how can we really know?
I always say my soldiers are painted to win battles, not painting competitions. None of my customers have ever complained. Get 'em painted, get 'em based, get them on the table rolling dice from massed volleys shredding your opponents. Job done
Here is the French 56th Regiment for June 1812 at 1:10 and guns 1:2 (haven't done the flags yet and battaion gun limber)


Have never painted Bavarians but if I did I'd use a home brew mid-blue I made to make US 1812 backpacks.

Mark

[Shapur II]

For my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag

OK, Thanks for the info.  The reason I asked about company fanions is because I had understood, wrongly?, that battalions all carried colours.  2nd, 3rd etc having returned their eagles in 1808??? but they still carried colours with the battalion embroidered on the flag.   


When did that change? 

Stu

[Zippee]

I may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .

[Shapur II]

I may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .

That makes perfect sense.  Trying to find your company(peloton) on a chaotic battlefield would be a challenge. Doctrine would help as companies formed in a specific order so if you have found the white flag then the green flag should be somewhere to the right.  Having gone looking for a specific platoon with a battalion forming on the parade square, I understand the issue.  Fortunately, the promenading officers were not shooting at us

This is one of the dynamics of the battlefield that I find intriguing.  Not interested in wheeling, marching, the intricacies of forming square from line, or column etc.  How did units reform after a failed attack, where did that happen?  How did troops know where to reform.  600 guys retiring from a position, under fire, hoping that enemy cavalry does not find them, have loads on their minds.  Yet histroies are replete with units retiring and reforming to defend or to renew the attack.  Yes, officers utilized the flat of sword method, sergeants just provided a stern look punctuated by epithets.  But units responded.    More research...

[sultanbev]

Not sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough" would be expected to before running out of impeteous, or how much space a unit usually retires from combat before it is able to rally. Or perhaps, the distance that a second line has time to open ranks to let the routing/falling back battalion through and redress the line to meet the enemy breakthrough with a crushing initial volley.

(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).

Mark