Great Wargaming Survey

[T13A]

Hi

As far as I am aware I'm allowed to comment on what I want to comment on (politics excepted). As to what is 'interesting' and what is not, is purely a matter of opinion.

Cheers Paul

[Ithoriel]

If Fantasy and Science Fiction are just another genre like Ancients, WW2 or Napoleonics then I have no problem with that but the idea that they somehow aren't "proper" wargaming is ludicrous and frankly a little insulting. Not least because when I mention wargaming as a hobby to people (as I do more often than I probably should) the reaction I get most often is,"Oh! Like Warhammer. I/ my sibling/ my kids/ my friends play/ played that." 

However, it is clear there are two camps here that will never convince each other so I acknowledge and defend your right to your own beliefs .... however misguided  

[Gwydion]

Ta, I'm more than happy to defend your right to be wrong also!


Oh! As for firing muskets at bedsheets and apfds etc at various armour plate on test ranges - don't use the results as a basis for battlefield rules. Take them as a start to work out why close range firefight went on half and hour and hardly anyone got shot and then start thinking about people's reactions in combat, loading and not firing repeatedly, firing high, firing low etc and built that into rules outcomes. Same with armour penetration charts.

But the bits of discussion about wizards' abilities to 'recharge', width and depth of spells etc are very interesting and looking at things like that can make it a good game instead of just ancients and dragons. If we accept that magic is effecting change at distance using energy, and if we accept laws of thermodynamics apply and you can't create or destroy that energy but only change its form, you can build a model of how that wizard accesses that energy, where from and how it affects him when he uses it. Like historical games, you don't need to bung all that into a set of rules, but having a theoretical model makes it a better game and can explain why some spells in your rules may be more effective but only useable infrequently, while others may be used easily and often but don' t do that much in the bigger scheme of things.

I don't have any belief that these things aren't 'proper' - they are good games, just not wargames. Like chess - great game but not a wargame (though it may have started out trying to be one!)

Meanwhile: Happy misguided gaming

[Leon]

I've got lots of questions now!  If we accept that a dragon is a high-intelligence creature then how motivated is it to perform in battle?  Can they be hired as a mercenary in exchange for gold, but then how long will they fight for you before deciding they can't be bothered?  Is a unit of wraiths psychically tied to your general and controlled mentally, so they become a non-feeling battering ram that will never fail a morale check?  Is there an element of self-harm to Trolls or large beasts where they could just as easily turn on your own troops?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Leon you should just worry about sell lots of small model dragons 

[Ithoriel]

Dragons are, according to folklore, well armoured, smart and capable not only of breathing flame but of generating wind storms with their wings capable of knocking troops flat and added to all that they have teeth, claws and a powerful tail. Some are supposed to be excellent mages.

They are also incredibly avaricious and powerfully territorial. And susceptible to flattery.

"Hey Mr. Dragon, sir! Wouldn't want to worry you but Bad King Boris is coming with his army to gain wealth and glory by killing you and looting your hoard.

I know you are clever and powerful and, no doubt, capable of dealing with him yourself.

However I am outraged by his naked banditry and am happy to bring my army to help you, in a show of solidarity.

What say you, Sir Dragon?"

<sotto voce> "Now, for the sake of all the gods, nobody let on Boris is coming for us!"

[Leman]

Feel equally free to feel insulted. Fantasy gaming is tosh!

[Ithoriel]

Feel equally free to feel insulted. Fantasy gaming is tosh!

A belief which you are entirely entitled to hold.

Though, if the world is round, no amount of belief will flatten it

[FierceKitty]

Feel equally free to feel insulted. Fantasy gaming is tosh!

Tosh - presumably meaning out of contact with reality and making no effort to match it. Mmmm, the word isn't solely a matter of opinion here, I submit with characteristic humility and deference to others.

[Big Insect]

I've got lots of questions now!  If we accept that a dragon is a high-intelligence creature then how motivated is it to perform in battle?  Can they be hired as a mercenary in exchange for gold, but then how long will they fight for you before deciding they can't be bothered?  Is a unit of wraiths psychically tied to your general and controlled mentally, so they become a non-feeling battering ram that will never fail a morale check?  Is there an element of self-harm to Trolls or large beasts where they could just as easily turn on your own troops?

I've always worked on the basis that Dragons are:
1) extremely long-lived
2) devious and manipulative
3) greedy for gold or other items that corrupt a mans heart (a fair maiden, precious jewels, rare talismans etc.)
4) generally quite large
5) come in either the fire breathing or non-fire breathing variety (Cold Drakes)
6) come in the flying or non-flying variant
7) are never to be trusted unless you have some hold over them

They are also - if human legend is to be believed (barring Game of Thrones - 'spit') - cowardly by nature.
I suspect that this is probably linked to the long-lived aspect - the longer you might live, generally the more precious you probably are about your own life.

And oh yes ... I nearly forgot ...
they are mythical  

It is of course well known that Trolls are much cleverer in cold climates - the closer to freezing the better.

[Ithoriel]

Tosh - presumably meaning out of contact with reality and making no effort to match it. Mmmm, the word isn't solely a matter of opinion here, I submit with characteristic humility and deference to others.

From Merriam-Webster

tosh noun
ˈtäsh
Definition of tosh: sheer nonsense

[Orcs]

I think we need to reign this in a bit Gents.  This part of the discussion started by discussing the genres of games in the Great Wargaming Survey. It has now degenerated into a slanging match about whether Fantasy gaming is part of wargaming.

I personally do not give a Monkeys *&*^ if you think wargaming  does or does not include  fantasy games, or what that type of game looks like. Be it Age of Sigmar, Zombie Duckmen,  or New Kingdom Egyptians Vs Byzantines.  

The industry including our hosts Pendraken make a reasonable income by selling all sorts of figures. The revenue from fantasy figures has almost certainly helped  to fund the industry and the production of Historical figure ranges.  

A persons choice of what type of game to play does not give them the right to degenerate other types of game . If you don't like it - don't play it. but please do not insult those who do.

Lets  keep this forum on a respectable level of communication.(Unlike others out there)

[FierceKitty]

I'm prepared to put money on it that anyone in this slanging match is very willing to have a drink with any other participant.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I submit with characteristic humility and deference to others.

Hmmm - a Kitty with humility, never met a feline that didna know it were the best. Humble ones - no

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I'm prepared to put money on it that anyone in this slanging match is very willing to have a drink with any other participant.

I'll drink wit almost anybody !