Why are Wargames Rules so Complicated ... ?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Useful to have contrasting colours for competing rolls.

Warlord's Erwon requires it.

[mmcv]

Useful to have contrasting colours for competing rolls.

Helps with solo play too, so you can tell the sides apart more easily when rolling for all. Picked up a multi-pack of packs of coloured dice when I started getting into the hobby (black, white, green, red, etc) with black or white pips which does the job for most things.

I do have an assortment of "rpg" style dice (d10s, d20s etc) where again I just went with a cheap multipack, though some of those have a mottled effect rather than solid colours, unfortunately. But they still have big white numbers on them so easy enough to read. I can understand people wanting dice with a bit more weight and heft to them, and feel good in the hand and to roll, particularly with rpg gamers, but certainly some of the designs are a bit mad and obscure.

The only "hard to read" dice I have is a set of small mottled green dice with yellow pips, intentionally so to act as subtle markers for ammo/casualties.

[John Cook]

There is a solution to all this dice stuff - don't use the damned things.

[mmcv]

There is a solution to all this dice stuff - don't use the damned things.

But that's half the fun! If you take away the tactile aspects of the game you may as well just be playing a video game. I played plenty of strategy computer games in the past (and spend most of my day on a computer screen these days) so it's nice to get away from screens and play a game with some more physical objects like models and dice or cards.

[Ithoriel]

Dice are the avatars of the Elder Chaos Gods and must be propitiated with prayers, supplications and libations of appropriate alcoholic or caffeinated beverages!

[toxicpixie]

As long as you can read them quickly and easily, I don't care

But feel free to send any beer related sacrifices my way, ta

[Orcs]

I just want dice like Sunjesters.

On a D6 If you want high rolls 90% of the time you get 5 or 6 , if you need low rolls (0% of the time you get 1 or 2.

Don't ask me how it works - If you borrow his dice they do the exact opposite!

[John Cook]

But that's half the fun! If you take away the tactile aspects of the game you may as well just be playing a video game. I played plenty of strategy computer games in the past.

If throwing dice is really "half the fun", try Snakes and Ladders, it is much cheaper that wargaming:D  There are many more tacticle aspects to conventional wargaming than dice I'd say and other means of generating random numbers, or chance, which is all dice do.  To each their own but, for me, the angst that dice seem to generate make them more trouble than they are worth.

[Ithoriel]

The frustration is not the dice but the apparent partiality of results ... which is the same whatever random method you use, in my experience. At times it feels as though the gods of the RNG are against you.

But the alternative is the sterility of games like chess or draughts.

I'll live with the frustration, thanks.

[jimduncanuk]

The frustration is not the dice but the apparent partiality of results ... which is the same whatever random method you use, in my experience. At times it feels as though the gods of the RNG are against you.

You've made me feel very old Mike.

I remember my early days in computing trying to make a wargames program. There was no such thing as a RNG option so I had to create my own. I took the least significant number of the system clock, turned it into an integer, recycled it if it was less than 1 or greater than 6 and voila you have a dice result.

This would have been sometime in July-December 1968.

Jim

[John Cook]

The frustration is not the dice but the apparent partiality of results ... which is the same whatever random method you use, in my experience. At times it feels as though the gods of the RNG are against you.

But the alternative is the sterility of games like chess or draughts.

I'll live with the frustration, thanks.

Therein lies the problem.  Dice can throw up unacceptably extreme and inconsistent results, far too often, which is one reason stopped wargaming for a while in the late 80s.  As for chess being sterile, I just give up

[Ithoriel]

My definition of a good game is one that is easy to learn but hard to master, that I win because I am skillful but lose because I was unlucky.

I found chess dull beyond belief despite winning far more than I lost. It has no soul.

[FierceKitty]

My definition of a good game is one that is easy to learn but hard to master, that I win because I am skillful but lose because I was unlucky.

I found chess dull beyond belief despite winning far more than I lost. It has no soul.

There are a lot of clever people who might not entirely support you in that opinion.

[John Cook]

There are a lot of clever people who might not entirely support you in that opinion.

[Nirnman]

Not having bothered to read through the rest of the replies to me the answer is simple it is to try and thwart the "RULES LAWYERS" those persons who if it "isn't in the rules " will try totwist things to their advantage.

[steve_holmes_11]

My definition of a good game is one that is easy to learn but hard to master, that I win because I am skillful but lose because I was unlucky.

I found chess dull beyond belief despite winning far more than I lost. It has no soul.

I once played in a many against an internetional master (chess event).
After the games he stayed behind to answer questions and chat in general.
Most of the talk went over my head "Strengths of the Sicilian Bishop", "Capablanca's opening in the third Paris game".

One bit that stuck with me, and applies to many other fields of learning was "fluency".
At come point just after "Master" the players stop thinking in terms of rules, and simply visualise the board as an extension of the world.
I compared it with trying to learn a language, where you'll be head down in a book agonising whether soap is masculine or feminine, but after 6 months in country, you're happily chatting away, making the odd mistake, but no longer thinking about the book.

I suspect this is the point where you look into the soul of chess.
If you're prepared to put in the hard work.
(Is it worth it?)

[Leman]

There are a lot of clever people who might not entirely support you in that opinion.

I'm with you on that FK. Ditch water is far more fascinating.

[DecemDave]

I'm with you on that FK. Ditch water is far more fascinating.

Yes that is fascinating.  What are the forum expert painters recommendations for 10mm ditch water on bases?   I've tried various combinations at larger scales of various colours and lots of clear gloss but I'm not happy with the results. 

[mmcv]

I suppose a good rule set should allow for the variations of the chance to fall within mostly expected parameters so the abject failures and absolute successes feel more dramatic.

Regarding chess and the like, it's a very different game, decision making is absolute in that as there is no friction beyond that brought by the opponent and your own skill level. So can see how that appeals to those who are drawn to the "static" patterns and complete information of the game state.

When I'm in the mood for abstract games like that I usually find I end up gravitating to Go as giving an element of that while still allowing a lot of creative freedom. It does fit well the easy to learn difficult to master mantra.

As for snakes and ladders...  There are a lot of board and video games that fall into similar traps, reducing the decision making and elevating the chance too much. I'm sure there's wargames the same. It's all about finding that sweet spot between decision making, information availability, control and friction that makes a good set of rules. So you're playing the battle, not the rules.

[Raider4]

There are a lot of clever people who might not entirely support you in that opinion.

And that matters to me how, exactly? (not just talking about chess - applies to anything)

Yes that is fascinating.  What are the forum expert painters recommendations for 10mm ditch water on bases?

Don't use blue!