Has there ever been a case of infantry attacking cavalry?

[DecemDave]

Not an expert but I think alexander's foot at Granicus piled in to cavalry who were already in an engagement with the companions.

[Big Insect]

Morgarten?

The Austrians dismounted at Morgarten (& gave the Swiss a tough time). The Swiss at this time are c.80% halberds and polearms & only c.20% pikes - it was the pikes that caused the Austrian dismounted men-at-arms the real problems and led to the Swiss rearming to a c.90% pike to 10% halberd composition. It was this combination that won them such success in the Burgundian Wars.

The Swiss Kiels do appear to have advanced upon & (maybe even) charged mounted men-at-arms during both the Burgundian Wars battles of Grandson and Nancy and beat their adversaries soundly. At Morat they attacked the Burgundian army in the flank, whilst it was at lunch and had just been paid - but even though it was behind field fortifications, and again beat it soundly. But I suspect most of the mounted Burgundians would have been dismounted when the Swiss caught them by surprise.  

Later, during the French Italian Wars. the Swiss again attacked enemy Spanish men-at-arms and Italian cavalry - but by that time it was their fearsome reputation that caused their mounted opponents to flee rather than enter into melee. Swiss over confidence was their downfall and they then attempted to charge (frontally) Spanish arquebusiers in field fortifications and supported by artillery and met their match.

At the Battle of Dreux (19th Dec 1562) - during the French Wars of Religion - the Swiss (Royal Catholic Guard) kiels hold off the Protestant 'Miller' nobles to start with, but are ultimately beaten by then - but only after they have fought for a large part of the day taking most of the 'strain' of the battle. At that time the Millers were still armed as classic fully armoured men-at-arms with barded horses and lance - rather than their later pistol armed variant. Even by this time the Swiss were still formidable but were still a very high % of pikes compared to their Landsknecht and Spanish adversaries who were starting to move towards Tercios - with as much as 50% of each formation armed with arquebus. The Swiss were considered outdated at this point using as few as 5% of their force armed with arquebus to screen the pike keils.

NB: We see infantry charging cavalry - with disastrous results in various British and Italian colonial campaigns in Africa - most notably during the Sudan.
(they don't like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring!)

[Big Insect]

I'd suggest that the Swiss are however a very rare exception and that it is most unusual for infantry to charge enemy cavalry that is not their disordered or already engaged in a melee or can be caught in the flank or rear.

[mmcv]

I'd suggest that the Swiss are however a very rare exception and that it is most unusual for infantry to charge enemy cavalry that is not their disordered or already engaged in a melee or can be caught in the flank or rear.

Yes I suspect you're right, and even for them it was usually driving the cavalry away with pikes or cutting them down when cornered rather than in the open where they could turn and run.

[Big Insect]

The Austrians dismounted at Morgarten (& gave the Swiss a tough time). The Swiss at this time are c.80% halberds and polearms & only c.20% pikes - it was the pikes that caused the Austrian dismounted men-at-arms the real problems and led to the Swiss rearming to a c.90% pike to 10% halberd composition. It was this combination that won then such success in the Burgundian Wars.

The Swiss Kiels do appear to have advanced upon & (maybe even) charged mounted men-at-arms during both the Burgundian Wars battles of Grandson and Nancy and beat their adversaries soundly. At Morat they attacked the Burgundian army in the flank, whilst it was at lunch and had just been paid - but even though it was behind field fortifications, and again beat it soundly. But I suspect most of the mounted Burgundians would have been dismounted when the Swiss caught them by surprise.  

Later, during the French Italian Wars. the Swiss again attacked enemy Spanish men-at-arms and Italian cavalry - but by that time it was their fearsome reputation that caused their mounted opponents to flee rather than enter into melee. Swiss over confidence was their downfall and they then attempted to charge (frontally) Spanish arquebusiers in field fortifications and supported by artillery and met their match.

At the Battle of Dreux (19th Dec 1562) - during the French Wars of Religion - the Swiss (Royal Catholic Guard) kiels hold off the Protestant 'Miller' nobles to start with, but are ultimately beaten by then - but only after they have fought for a large part of the day taking most of the 'strain' of the battle. At that time the Millers were still armed as classic fully armoured men-at-arms with barded horses and lance - rather than their later pistol armed variant. Even by this time the Swiss were still formidable but were still a very high % of pikes compared to their Landsknecht and Spanish adversaries who were starting to move towards Tercios - with as much as 50% of each formation armed with arquebus. The Swiss were considered outdated at this point using as few as 5% of their force armed with arquebus to screen the pike keils.

NB: We see infantry charging cavalry - with disastrous results in various British and Italian colonial campaigns in Africa - most notably during the Sudan.
(they don't like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring!)

The Swiss also appear to have taken on and charged 'German/Austrian' men-at-arms during the Swabian Wars battle of Dornach (22nd July 1499) - a woodcut representing the battle shows the Swiss in attacking stance - but then it is only a very lovely woodcut   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dornach  (I just love those late C15th prints)

[FierceKitty]

Romans were ordered to go for the thighs of Armenian Pontic cavalry, this part not being covered in sword-proof armour. Whether this means they were to expect a charge and be ready to hold and defeat it, or rather to go onto the attack....

[Chris Pringle]

I can offer a case from 1848: Austrian Grenzer skirmishers attacking and driving off Hungarian hussars at Tapio-Bicske IIRC. Unfortunately the account doesn't make clear whether it is a battalion of Grenzers against a regiment of cavalry, or (more likely I think) just a platoon or so against a troop or two.

[mmcv]

In my experiments last night the infantry had to take a resolve test to advance on cavalry (with a negative modifier). Failing the test can result in then taking disorder or even routing in extreme cases. Success means they advance on the cavalry who in most cases just run away though may potentially counter charge. If the cavalry attempt a counter charge and fail to pass their resolve test they may end up disordered and in melee with the infantry, then would have to await their next activation to attempt to withdraw. They have no need to test to evade.

This seems a reasonable approach where it can be done in extreme cases but is very hard and risky. I've not settled in what the modifiers will be to charge cav and cav to withdraw yet, will need to tweak and balance them.

Will probably have something similar for cavalry charging non disordered formed infantry. Can be done, but difficult and near suicidal.

[steve_holmes_11]

Generally (In the open, no other units involved, no special conditions).

I would expect cavalry to respond to an infantry advance in one of these ways:
  Evade - maybe drawing the Infantry out of their supporting formation.
  Counter charge - probably giving cavalry the advantage, and maybe disordering the infantry.
  Skirmish - A blend of evading combined with missiles directed at the pesky footmen.

I would usually expect foot to advance to get a better firing range on the horsemen.
Some situations mess this up.
A classic colonial example might see a spear and shield warrior facing some of her Majesty's horse.
The poor old warrior is in quite a bind:
   Outgunned Vs the horseman's repeating carbine.
   Outweighted in a charge situation.
   Outmobiled on good going type ground.

The warrior's best option is to rely on cavalry unfriendly terrain, ambush and cunning.
Or hope the horsemen are led by a Hollywood style buffoon.

[DecemDave]

Caesar at Pharsalus?   "hidden" only means behind other troops.

As Pompey's infantry fought, Labienus ordered the Pompeian cavalry on his left flank to attack Caesar's cavalry; as expected they successfully pushed back Caesar's cavalry. Caesar then revealed his hidden fourth line of infantry and surprised Pompey's cavalry charge; Caesar's men were ordered to leap up and use their pila to thrust at Pompey's cavalry instead of throwing them.

[mmcv]

Yeah still to work out the details of terrain effects. Experimenting with a few different options. In the feudal Japan rules (where units are a mix of all different troops) I had it that only one movement per activation was allowed across difficult terrain. In the skirmish rules it requires a 2d6 test with a movement modifier which was controlled by heaviness of equipment, injuries,etc. With these crusades ones I had it requiring a formation change (i.e. from close formation to loose/open order) with light troops always being open. Then give any unit in open order a negative to melee combat and resolve but able to move freely through rough terrain. This works reasonably well, but will need to balance the modifiers to give cavalry a harder time of it.

[notmatthew]

What about Caesar breaking off men to attack the cavalry on the right flank at Pharsalus?


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[notmatthew]

Ha, just noticed that has been mentioned.


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[cameronian]

Battle of Falkirk during the Jacobite Rising, Highlanders charged and routed Hawley's Dragoons.

[mmcv]

I wasn't aware of that one. I had a quick read in Wikipedia (reliability questionable) and it suggests the dragoons charged over bad ground, got a face full of lead at close range, took one look at the Highlanders and broke and ran.