The over-rated

[flamingpig0]

Just found this on Patton

warontherocks.com/2014/08/warchives-the-myth-of-germanys-obsession-with-patton/

[paulr]

Interesting

[Chris Pringle]

Suvorov is not as well known in the west as he deserves.

I agree, Suvorov was an amazing character, beloved by his troops. One characteristic episode: when his men were repulsed at the St Gotthard Pass, he lay in a ditch wailing 'you are no longer my children!' and motivating them to give it another (successful) go.

Yi and Suvarov are hardly underrated, I'd say. I've never read a disparaging word about either.

While Clausewitz gives Suvorov due praise for his leadership - who else could have led an army on that mad march over the Alps and made it out the other side? - he also points out some limitations. E.g., Suvorov was a difficult man to get on with: he managed to insult and offend the Austrians under his command by the way he made them practise bayonet assaults, implying he didn't think they knew how to attack.

As for another over-rated general: how about Archduke Charles? Frequently praised (with justification) as Austria's best general of the Napoleonic Wars, but people seem to forget how badly he performed in 1799. I particularly cherish his comically incompetent failed attempt at a river crossing near Zurich, which reads like a badly designed wargame scenario in which 200 Swiss riflemen exploit a rules loophole to prevent Charles's 30,000 allied troops from getting across.

Anyway, Clausewitz's histories of 1799 are a great read.
https://kansaspress.ku.edu/978-0-7006-3025-7.html
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2020/09/exceptional-elegant-and-accessible.html

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles

[flamingpig0]

Just imagine how Ramesses ii would make use of social media

[FierceKitty]

Just imagine how Ramesses ii would have made use of social media.

I thought he did!

[Ithoriel]

Just imagine how Ramesses ii would make use of social media

I thought he did!

Ramesses wrote on walls, was desperate for followers, had odd ideas on how the world worked and venerated cats. Social media on the other hand ...  Oh! ... wait! .... I see what you mean

[Chris Pringle]

Ramesses wrote on walls, was desperate for followers, had odd ideas on how the world worked and venerated cats. Social media on the other hand ...  Oh! ... wait! .... I see what you mean

[Chris Pringle]

As for another over-rated general: how about Archduke Charles? Frequently praised (with justification) as Austria's best general of the Napoleonic Wars, but people seem to forget how badly he performed in 1799. I particularly cherish his comically incompetent failed attempt at a river crossing near Zurich, which reads like a badly designed wargame scenario in which 200 Swiss riflemen exploit a rules loophole to prevent Charles's 30,000 allied troops from getting across.

Kinda disappointed nobody leapt to defend Archduke Charles against the accusation of being over-rated ... did I do too good a job of making the case against him? 

Chris

[toxicpixie]

We're mostly British, and either think you went to small as he's a European and not Wellington or Nelson, or have done mild reading and assume you're trolling, Chris

Monty. I used to think he was appalling then I read his memoirs and somehow formed an even lower opinion of him. Such a load of self aggrandising pap have I never seen (outside of MacArthur & Patton). Then I mellowed as I aged and realised whilst he was almost always wrong on detail, his broad scope was often correct, and he wasn't paralysed with fear of failure but rather was mostly meticulous in the the dotting of T's and crossing of I's that win strategic victory

Mountbatten on the other hand I have a deep and abiding loathing for as every operation he touched spent lives like water for his personal attempt to worm in and place himself inside the Royals (although he had to settle for Phil the Greek, but that was enough).

[John Cook]

Kinda disappointed nobody leapt to defend Archduke Charles against the accusation of being over-rated ... did I do too good a job of making the case against him? 
Chris

Hard to know why, but it might be because these kinds of discussions often lead to the deeply unpleasant, appallingly rude, partisan rubbish that is seen on other forums, such as TMP, The Napoleonic Wars Forum and the, now defunct, Napoleon Series.

[steve_holmes_11]

Hard to know why, but it might be because these kinds of discussions often lead to the deeply unpleasant, appallingly rude, partisan rubbish that is seen on other forums, such as TMP, The Napoleonic Wars Forum and the, now defunct, Napoleon Series.

Proper Historians have long moved to the idea that history is driven by systems and events, as opposed to the "great man" theory.
"Great man" thinking persists on television, because the narrative fits a 30 or 60 minute program format better than the deeper storytelling necessary for a complete view.
It lives on in the school classroom for similar reasons.

One pleasant result of the "new history" is the decline of marauding packs of fanboys, getting angry and abusive about poorly documented events that occurred centuries ago.
The fanboys appear to be living out their dotage on internet forums, where they end up sounding like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl_rufmxYbA

(The Producers - Churchill Rotten Painter)

[FierceKitty]

And at the same time butterflies flap their wings and cause storms. The fight's not over, just changing the arena.

[Chris Pringle]

Hard to know why, but it might be because these kinds of discussions often lead to the deeply unpleasant, appallingly rude, partisan rubbish that is seen on other forums, such as TMP, The Napoleonic Wars Forum and the, now defunct, Napoleon Series.

Well I agree we don't want to get into anything like that, but the point of FK's post was surely to invite opinions and generate discussion. Anyway: certainly not looking to wind people up or start a fight. We have the Forum Barfight for that!

[toxicpixie]

Amen to that, Steve!

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

We have the Forum Barfight for that!

But the pub is closed so need to export it somewhere else Tier 3 don't you know ?

[Techno II]

I think I trust the vast majority of the forum to try and NOT to start a really nasty argument......It's just not worth it.

That's why we keep going on about......Keep politics and religion OFF the forum.....Which is why I believe we do so well.

(If only ) A 'really good' debate.....Where people actually bother to listen, and take in, and try and comprehend a view that's not their own.....Is absolutely great !

If folk just go....."My view is 'A'....and if you don't agree with me, you're a complete wonker......And then vice versa....So the folk that think 'B' is the only answer...and 'A' is talking absolute 'poop'...doesn't help at all.

Personally, I think folk on both extremes are people I would never want to give the time of day to.

Remember.....I've got 'buttons'......and I don't wait to ask Sir
The World is far too polarised already.

Cheers - Phil

[DHautpol]

Whilst I agree that Mountbatten had a great appetite for self-promotion, I wonder how much was driven by the treatment meted out to his father; forced by public opinion from his role as First Sea Lord in WWI because of his German heritage.  

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I think I trust the vast majority of the forum to try and NOT to start a really nasty argument......It's just not worth it.

Phil - You obviously don't know me very well  :}

[Techno II]

You Muppet ! 

Cheers - Phil

[pierre the shy]

Reminds me of this.....