Template lists for new Modern ranges

[Sunray]

Thanks Mark. That's the sort of tablewise feedback we need, Phil's figures are finer than the early Vietnam range, so even with a little exaggeration, his 12.7 will NOT be the same size as a 1/150 Bofors.

I will refer Orcs' request upwards.

[John Cook]

In all seriousness could we include

Youths throwing stones/ petrol bombs
PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.

Leon asked in the OP

"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed.  Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"

I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range.  Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.

[Sunray]

"Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?"
In my rules yes. With a range of about 4km that is 200cm in CWC, so they would appear on table in many wargames.

"Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in  simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?"

Good point, I play battalions at 1:1 so I'd buy 6x Sa-7 teams as that is what a brigade has.


Sa-2s were used as emergency anti-tank rockets once the IDF had crossed the canal, and the old Airfix nostalgia might kick in, but yes, we don't really need Sa-2 and Sa-3 models. The ZSU-23-4 and Sa-6 I can probably get elsewhere in 3D print or from Red3.

Mark

Thanks Mark

In excange for tons of kit, the US got access to a IDF intel combat reports and debriefs. This was passec to NATO. Things like:
1. The role of debussed infantry was still valid, and the MICV role such as the Soviet BMP needed to be revised. The fact that Arab infantry did not debus needs to be in the rules.
2. Counter battery fire was taken by IDF to a whole new level.
3. The ZSU-23-4. Yes, I can predict Pendraken will make one. The Arabs depoyed them forward as AAA. However, in the battles around Suez, they were encountered by IDF Recon units. Jeeps with 7.62mm and .50 HMG. It was found their exposed optics werevery  vunerable to small arms fire.  Is this in the rules?
4. SA-2 against tanks. No even an open sight. But agree with your Airfix theory. Wargaming is 60% building and painting. All IA have done during pandemic is paint.

Thanks again

James

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.

[Sunray]

Leon asked in the OP

"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed.  Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"

I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range.  Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.

Two key points to note:

1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973  October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO  did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than  support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.

Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.



























9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.

[Sunray]

Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.

Care to expand Ian?  My query to Mark was if CWC rules had mechanisn for the ZSU-23-4 to have its optics disabled by small arms fire. As happened in 1973 war,

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.

[Orcs]

It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.

Perhaps bring back the HMG's may suppress armored vehicles rule from BKC1 for this.

I think this is an area that we do not pay enough attention to.  I have just read Anthony Beevor's book 'D-Day'. In it it is mentioned the effect of Mortar fire on Tanks from both a morale perspective and forcing  them to close down and hugely reduce their visibility. Surely this is true for even modern tanks  even in modern tanks.?

Israeli Tank commanders suffered a high percentage of casualties, mainly to head wounds from having their head out of the hatch.  A wounded or killed  commander is going to have a negative effect on both the crew and vehicle effectiveness.  Either from simply the lack of a crew member or from what is leaking out of him into the tank.

[Sunray]

Thanks Ian.  The ZSU 23-4 is unique in that its firepower is lethal to an infantry unit, however its Achilles' heel is its exposed firecontrol optics,  A decent burst from a 7.62 GPMG will render it blind. It is not an AFV. It is tracked AAA.  Not designed to be shot up.  This may need to be reflected in rules.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.

[John Cook]

Two key points to note:

1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973  October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO  did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than  support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.

Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.

9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.

I see.  So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973  October Yom Kippur War range."

Makes you wonder who's in charge.   

I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War but I do know the distinction between the PLO and the PLA and I would only point out that Orcs asked specifically for "PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.", he didn't ask for PLA.

A generic Arab insurgent range would be very useful for a 'loosely focused' expansion to cover ME/Arabian Peninsular conflicts generally. 

[Sunray]

But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.

The 23/4 units were only deployed in the debacle that was Grozny because no Russian tank/AFV had the elevatin for roof top FIBUA. No argument about the power of their 4x 12.7 mm supressive fire. But they were deployed with T72s , Mi 24s, and at one stage even Spetsnaz!  Even so the 23/4s suffered heavy losses.

Now, you are an Egyptian 23/4 crew on the road to Suez City. Your training has been to engage low flying aircraft. You are ordered to delay IDF advance. Two jeeps come down the road. You fire off 4,000 rds in 60 seconds.  The first jeep explodes, the second engages with its fifty. The 1A7SRD disentagrates into the commander's face.

You are buttoned up and blind. Fifty AP are bouncing around the vehicle. Your driver is dead.  The commander panics and opens the hatch, in drops an M26.........

[Sunray]

I see.  So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973  October Yom Kippur War range."

Makes you wonder who's in charge.  

I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War .

In short yes- Phil and I have the figures template from Leon, we follow the brief.  That's where it stays until Leon says different. R and D of a new range is not cheap, and starts with a core of mainstream figures.  If Yom Kippur  mainstream generates sales, no doubt Leon will consider requests like PLO and expand the range. That]s his call.  When Leon and I discussed the core range,  he  sanctioned 1973 IDF, Egyption,and Syrian.  The minor role of Jordanian, PLA, and PLO in 1973 excluded them. Personally, I argued for Cold War first, but Leon's in charge.

  If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum.  As you admit you have no interest in the range.   
 

[fsn]

In 1973 I cut out all the news articles and magazine articles I could find. 

In 2013 I dumped them.   

For me 1973 would be a troop/platoon level game - based around a troop of tanks and a platoon of infantry in their vehicles. Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?    

I suppose it's a bit different if you're working at battalion/brigade level.

I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.

*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.

[pierre the shy]

Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?   :- 

Can I have a Sho't at answering your question?

[fsn]

 

[Raider4]

. . . but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?   :- 

M50 or M51 Super Sherman?

[fsn]

OK, I was thinking of the M48.

[Sunray]

I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.

*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.

Quite.  Leon knows the market.  If you start a WW2 range, you start with Brits and Germans, then USA and Soviets.  Once they make a return in sales, you expand to perhaps Polish and French.

And yes. the Pendraken 23/4 is in the pipeline. Mark can sort a CWC rule as regards smallarms fire.

[John Cook]

If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum.  As you admit you have no interest in the range.   
 

I'm just confused by seemingly contradictory messages.  No, I don't have any interest in a Yom Kippur War range but you told me in December, in the context of an M38 model, that you "don't do Arab-Israeli" either.