Von Ritchofen

[MartinKnight1333]

A book I have at home, 1925 fifty war stories on escapes, bravery, spying, evasions but  the one that stood out and I went WOW when I read it was;

The Australians have been credited with shooting down Von Ritchoven in a program a while back, but no one mentioned the Autopsy, the Doctor who did that act said the bullet that killed him did not come upwards into the body but downwards from above.

Ball the pilot says he saw him turn around to look at him as his MGs tore into his aircraft, therefore has credit been taken away from the Pilot, it looks like it to me.

[FierceKitty]

I don't believe I know the name....

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

It was Snoopy! 

[mollinary]

I don't believe I know the name....

A little unkind, FK, a pretty average example of fat finger syndrome! Von Richtofen, of course......... ring a bell?

[jimduncanuk]

I believe the Baron was in a tight bank at the time so 'up' isn't necessarily up and a bullet could easily come down into the body from below.

Nobody flew straight and level and lived long in that air war.

[MartinKnight1333]

jimduncanuk
sorry the evidence is clear for the round to have entered hed have to be inverted, no sorry ball got him!

I believe Ball and his statement, why would you not ?

[Ithoriel]

jimduncanuk
sorry the evidence is clear for the round to have entered hed have to be inverted, no sorry ball got him!

I believe Ball and his statement, why would you not ?

Because "kill" claims are notoriously unreliable?

Because, as Jim says, flying straight and level is a good way to get killed?

Because bullets come down as well as going up?

Not saying Ball didn't get him, just that it's far from clear cut.

[Terry37]

There has been a dispute since it happened if the Australian ground gunners shot him down or Roy Brown, 209 squadron, actually shot him down. We do know that the Baron was on the tail of "Wop" May for his expected to be 81st kill. I am committed to the kill going to Roy Brown. And if it wasn't him, then it was definitely Snoopy!!!

Terry

[MartinKnight1333]

I second Snoopy.

Because he was shot through the back  !!!!       

[FierceKitty]

A little unkind, FK, a pretty average example of fat finger syndrome! Von Richtofen, of course......... ring a bell?

Two bells, in fact. Lothar was no teddy bear in the cockpit himself.

[mollinary]

Two bells, in fact. Lothar was no teddy bear in the cockpit himself.

Very true!

[MartinKnight1333]

It was all Balls anyway as it was Brown, I reread the piece the autopsy was carried out by several Doctors all came to the same conclsions the bullet that killed him cam from above, Brown was the last to see him turn after the MGs on the ground had shot.

[John Cook]

The autopsy of von Richthofen showed that the single .303 bullet that killed him coursed left top right through his chest.  The damage was consistent with a range of about 600 meters and he would have survived the wound for between 15 to 20 seconds.  The only candidate was the Australian Sgt Popkin with his Vickers MG firing for a ground position.

[FierceKitty]

I won't try to shout anyone down, but my reading on the subject some years ago left me persuaded it was probably the ground MG that did him in.

[MartinKnight1333]

The autopsy of von Richthofen showed that the single .303 bullet that killed him coursed left top right through his chest.  The damage was consistent with a range of about 600 meters and he would have survived the wound for between 15 to 20 seconds.  The only candidate was the Australian Sgt Popkin with his Vickers MG firing for a ground position.

Where is this conflicting data, it was stated that the bullet penertrated from above, and the' quote' several Doctors all confirm it was not possible for it to be from the ground but above ?  So where does this autopsy revord say this?

[Techno]

Hi Martin.

Knowing next to nothing about this....I had a quick 'google' and found this......

http://www.priory.com/history_of_medicine/richthofen.htm

How 'official' this is, I have no idea..and as to its accuracy. 

If it IS the genuine article....The conclusions drawn, here, to seem to be that the 'kill shot' came from the ground. See the inferences and deductions and conclusions 'bit' towards to bottom of the page.

Have a quick gander and see if it throws any light on this.

Cheers - Phil 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I suspect we will never know the real cause - but seems that the modern consensus seems to be ground fire. However the pilots in the fight were responsible for pushing him down to a level were the ground fire could hit, so can take considerable credit.

IanS

[Techno]

I suspect we will never know the real cause - IanS

Although, as I said....I really know bog all about Von R.....apart from the fact that he was called the Red Baron.....I totally agree with Ian.
It makes me think of high profile legal cases, where the defence and prosecution call 'conflicting' medical experts...To 'prove' the relevant, opposing, points of view.

You pays your money, and takes your choice as to which you believe, I guess.

Cheers - Phil 

[FierceKitty]

Apparently it was quite widely believed that the dreaded Red Baron's powers were beyond those of any man - and that "he" was therefore a "she". Manfred was not amused when a prisoner told him about this.

[John Cook]

There is an examination of the evidence here https://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/comment/richt.htm.  See the conclusions.  It rules out Brown and Gunner Buie and concludes that it could only have been Popkin or some other unidentified Australian soldier firing a .303 weapon.

The PBS documentary 'Who Killed the Red Baron' came to the same conclusion.