WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.

[pierre the shy]

Reads thread, wants desperately to join in:
"My pre-Flodden Scots carry M3 pikes but switch to M5's for the march south in 1513".

If you're marching south don't get onto the M25.....you'll end up going in circles....probably rather slowly.

Plenty of proxies in some of the WW2 games I've played in over the years, though they have been mainly 6mm so they are not quite so obvious.   

[MartinKnight1333]

The M5 was made slightly longer for I think a very good reason.
American Squads are 10 men.
British three bricks of four making 12 men.

[Westmarcher]

While I understand that it's nice to have the exact model for a thing, I have had to use so many proxies over the piece that getting hung up over the minutiae of make and model aren't generally something I bother with.

One of the blokes who used to come here gaming had some hannomags, sprayed green and with an allied star on the bonnet, to move his US armoured infantry.  No one batted an eyelid.

... and now we know why. 

[Orcs]

While I understand that it's nice to have the exact model for a thing, I have had to use so many proxies over the piece that getting hung up over the minutiae of make and model aren't generally something I bother with.

One of the blokes who used to come here gaming had some hannomags, sprayed green and with an allied star on the bonnet, to move his US armoured infantry.  No one batted an eyelid.

Well said.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The M5 was made slightly longer for I think a very good reason.
American Squads are 10 men.
British three bricks of four making 12 men.

ER NOOOOOOO. You would lucky to get 8 men in a British infantry SECTION - which operationally split into a 5 and a 3, or if at the official strength of 10, 7 and 3(with the Bren). Motor Infantry were officially 8, and these would have had the 1/2 tracks.

US armoured infantry were 12, but that included the driver and gunner, who would stay with the vehicle, giving 10 dismounts.

Also the vehicles were issued with a bazooka, M1919 30 cal, and Thompson SMG....the British removed those.

IanS

[MartinKnight1333]

I would guess also that the size was because the demand by the British to carry 12 men ie three bricks as opposed to the American 10 man squads?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

REda the above, NO BRITISH SECTION EVER HAD 12 MEN !!!!

[MartinKnight1333]

Yes they did, prove they didn't not all units were 10 men and no need to shout its rude !

The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen according to the roll in the local museum, but i agree majority units were understrength.

No two British units were the same ORBAT, as it was and is today what ever the unit could beg steal and borrow.

No unit operates 5-3, ideally two 4's with rifle and the Bren team of 2, plus the Lance Corporal with a sten, more often a rifle.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I suggest you find copies of British Army Handbook by Chamberlin and Eliis and the same title by George Forty, both taken from War Office publications, and do a Google search on the British Army of WWII. You will then find that the only 12 Section would be in a Carrier Platoon, with 3 carriers each with 4 crew, of whom 3 dismounted. The standard Rifle Platoon, both lorried and foot troops had 3 Sections of officially 10 men, whilst the Motor battalions had 8 man sections, and they would be an 8 man section as they were originally sized for 15cwt trucks.

The only 12 man sections could be in the Commandos, who most certainly did not have 1/2 tracks, and possibly Paras early on, plus the Glider Pilot rgt, again neither had 1/2 tracks, doubt a C47 could lift one !

So please stop inventing organisations, leg infantry NEVER were in 12's

I have been modest and not referred you to some of my publications about WWII either.

Also the only difference in body length for 1/2 Track models is between M2 and M3, since the M2 is supposedly a gun tractor, and IH built the M5 and M9 at the same length .

IanS

[sultanbev]

"The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen"
Was it then two surviving squads to the platoon, rather than three? Whilst I've come across the fact that some tank units landed overstrength on Normandy, I've never come across overstrength infantry units, especially after a few days fighting. Platoons were often reduced to 25 men or less, indeed some companies fought in Normandy with 50 effectives. How those 25 or so men were organised would have been up to the platoon commander at the time, so it's conceivable some platoons might have gone for two larger squads rather than 3 smaller ones, but I've not seen any evidence for that.
Even if they were 12 man squads (okay, sections), the Left Out of Battle system would mean they only went into action with 8-10 men anyway.

That's all beside the point, as the Warwickshires was an infantry battalion, not a Motor Battalion, and only the Motor Battalions used the halftracks, with, as Ian said, 8 man sections.

Mark

[MartinKnight1333]

Bye guys this is not a friendly site at all.

you dismiss fact as fiction to suit your views. you wont see me again.

Its doesnt matter the statement no unit had 12 men section is bunkum, dont bother replying i wont reply to close dminds.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Think you might have misunderstood people and theor debates.

[d_Guy]

Pub! My Flodden Scots have the much superior M4 and, I know this is a little out of period, Brens.

I still have hopes that you are including an oxen-towed V1?

If you're marching south don't get onto the M25.....you'll end up going in circles....probably rather slowly. 

There is a large round-about outside of Oxford in which an alternate version of myself has been stuck since the Autumn of '92.

M3 refers to the ~10 ft (3 meter) Scottish spears used in schiltons and then the abrupt change to M5's, the ~16 foot French pikes (in case it wasn't obvious). Weapon lengths are, of course, open to a vast amount of debate.

Hope Martian will reconsider, this forum is the most congenial I have encountered.

While we're at it I miss Leman as well, his great battle presentations and generally knowledgeable and pithy comments. We need a Rodney King moment.

[Leon]

REda the above, NO BRITISH SECTION EVER HAD 12 MEN !!!!

Can we stop shouting at people please Ian?! 

The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen according to the roll in the local museum, but i agree majority units were understrength.

To get things back on track here, is there a discussion to be had about the information in this museum and why these strengths would be different to the standard structure?

[fsn]

I still have hopes that you are including an oxen-towed V1?

Hells, yes! Must get the camera out. My Flodden will get the right result!

M3 refers to the ~10 ft (3 meter) Scottish spears used in schiltons and then the abrupt change to M5's, the ~16 foot French pikes (in case it wasn't obvious). Weapon lengths are, of course, open to a vast amount of debate.

The M4 pike is the attenuated M3 ... sometimes erroneously called a spear.

Hope Martian will reconsider, this forum is the most congenial I have encountered.

Agreed.

We need a Rodney King moment.

Are you suggesting we beat someone up in a car park, whilst being covertly filmed?  

[fsn]

To get things back on track here, is there a discussion to be had about the information in this museum and why these strengths would be different to the standard structure?

I'd be very interested to find out more.

All the books I've read have 12 man US and 8 or 10 man UK sections (excluding carrier, commado etc). I think SultanBev may have it right, that it was a reorganisation of a platoon that had suffered casualties from 3 sections to 2. Possibly with the loss of NCOs making the restructure necessary.

Other suggestion could be that part of the HQ section was attached to a rifle section. This would make sense if the platoon was acting in close coperation with a troop of 3 Infantry tanks?

[MartinKnight1333]

HI Guys on request I am not leaving.  

I think I over reacted to being shouted at by a stranger,capitals, who if he was in front of me would be on his arse in two  

All I said was I saw one instance of the Waricks being a 12 man squad, it may have been a one off for patrols, as was 42 comdo in N.I in the troubles when I was with them, a three brick four man squad when going out. Yes as a matelot we did foot patrols no matter what, take your turn,

As to the M3 it did have modifications to the M5 yes,  but I know of no one that calls it the M5 half track. I will always call it an M3 and on discussion with several chaps we all agree we are not changing, force of servicemans habits.  

I served on a type Rothesay or Type 12 frigate was in fact upgraded to trpe 14 but we all still call it a 12. My point is the military will always call it by its first name, I still called my Rifle 5.56mm L85 (SA80) an SA80 even though it was a modified Rifle L85A1, then when I left 5.56mm L119A1. but still called the SA mostly.

I hope you now see my reasoning, I know 10 man squads are the norm. but my question was not always?

Look at Arnhem the paras all took etc Piats in but we can not find out how many they ,shall I say, aquired over the issue.  Like when we got stopped my the MOD Police when trying to aquire a 30mm to bolt onto the back of the ship in 82, it was lying around in the dockyard officer, good job they had a sense of humour.

Same as tankers I know, well 2, dont call it a Challenger II its always from the tankers I know called a Challey or challey to.

[Ithoriel]

Glad to see you back Martin.

I think the point is that, if one is to be strictly accurate, the US used M3s while the Brits used the International Harvester produced M5.

I don't think what one calls it is the issue here.

The M5 is a slightly different beast in terms of length, body shape and front end.

The M5 is a smidge longer because existing IH production facilities were used rather than due to any requirement to carry a given number of troops.

All that said, I think we've already established that some of us, at least, wouldn't give a toss if you turned up with M113s providing we knew what they represented on the table.

As to section size, the Warwickshires took a pounding at Lebisey, losing the equivalent of a company, so non-standard organisations may have been required at that time until reinforcements were received. However, for gaming purposes I'd be chary of fielding such an organisation unless modelling a specific incident.

The forum is, at times, weird and wacky (see the intrusion of Flodden related posts below ) for me that is part of it's charm.

For the most part it is well informed, well intentioned and welcoming.

I hope you come to enjoy and appreciate it.

Mike

[d_Guy]

Are you suggesting we beat someone up in a car park, whilst being covertly filmed?  :-

Life is full of ambiguity, fsn. 

Glad you reconsidered, Martin.

[MartinKnight1333]