Updating Sir Edward

[fsn]

Having strolled through Oman, I'm revisiting Sir Edward Creasy's "15 decisive Battles of the World: From Marathon to Waterloo".*

Like Oman, Creasy betrays his Imperial background - "the Syracusans reacted to the Spartan general the same was Indian troops react to a British officer." Quite.

However, Sir Edward halts his narrative in 1815. Since he was writing in 1851, this is somewhat forgivable, there being nothing of note between 1815 and 1851. 

We, gentlemen, have the benefit of another century and a half and my challenge to you is to add a further 5 battles to the list. To simplify matters, I think we should draw a line at 1913. We should keep with Sir Edward's undeclared limits:

• "The World" means Europe and such parts of the Middle East as can be learned about reading Classics at Oxford. 
• The more British involvement, the better

So what would you add to the list? The period 1815 - 1913 is one of my dead spots, so I am genuinely interested. I will chuck in my tuppence anyway.

Something from the Austro-Prussian War - i.e. the breaking of Austrian power in Germany.
Something from the Franco-Prussian War - i.e. the dominance of Germany over France.
The Italians becoming Italy. Sir E would like that.

Now I'm a bit stuck.

I thought of the Indian Mutiny, but Sir E is quiet about Plassey and Assaye, so that's out.
The American Civil War. Did it change a lot? Really? If the Confederates had won, the US capital would have trolled 50 miles or whatever over to Richmond. Apart from that?**
Crimean War -  a sideline.
1831? 1848?
Perhaps we could sneak in something from the Sudan, or perhaps Adwa?
Tsushima 1904.

Your thoughts appreciated.


* One of my biggest regrets was loaning my 1894 copy of Sir E to a bounder who never returned it.
**Yes, I'm being deliberately provocative. Apologies.

[FierceKitty]

Your suggestions require us to go extra-terrestrial (for the given value of a few lines previous).

[paulr]

There was something involving the British and Empire around the turn of the century but is South Africa outside the definition of the world

[Ithoriel]

One half of my Higher History syllabus at school was Great Britain and Europe: 1815-1913 and I am convinced by that course that absolutely nothing of any significance at all happened in that period in those locations.

I was so enthused by the course that I answered questions on The Armies and Generalship of Gustavus Adolphus, The Borders Of The Roman Empire from the Reforms of Marius to the Death of Marcus Aurelius and The Code Napoleon ... to the horror of my History teacher who presumed I knew nothing about any those.

I got an "A" pass and the school History Prize out of it.

[Last Hussar]

The Battle of Britain.

Defenders rarely 'win' battles. They just don't lose before the attacker gives up.

The RAF were 24-48 hours from destruction when the Luftwaffe stopped bombing airfields and bombed London instead.

Imagine 1940 where the Luftwaffe had air supremacy (not superiority).  It doesn't matter the relative strengths of RN v KM - no air opposition, the Seelowe supply lines stay open.

Imagine Britain falling - it doesn't have to be occupied, just has to stay out of the war.

[fsn]

Sorry LH, a good effort but you didn't RTFQ.

Since 1914-1945 have a large number of offerings, I (with Sir E's ghostly approval) restricted the date range to 1816-1913.

One half of my Higher History syllabus at school was Great Britain and Europe: 1815-1913 and I am convinced by that course that absolutely nothing of any significance at all happened in that period in those locations.

That echoes the sentiment behind the question really.



Last night, after being woken by what I thought was  a military parade, but turned out to be one energetic drunk, I thought about the Greek War of Independence. Again, Sir E would approve, and it does seem to be a rather important event.

[Last Hussar]

Oh fartyfudgeballs, I managed to forget that bit by the time I finished reading the OP.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Thought there was nothing of interest outside the empire anyway? The following are with my Imperial tongue firmly in cheek...
Great Paraguayan War might get in as a footnote,  because look what they get up to when we aren't there to tell them what to do?
Opium Wars and Boxer Rebellion, not worth a second, it's our right to sell highly addictive drugs for a massive profit.
Fenian Raids, look what a small band of our loyal colonists can do...
I can imagine 6 or 7 chapters given over to the War of Jenkins Ear or Zanzibar...

[steve_holmes_11]

Let me put in a call for Greek Independence. 1822 onward.

1. It temporarily aligned the diplomatic (and occasionally military) efforts of otherwise mutually hostile European powers in the cause of pan-hellenism.
2. It re-ignited Pan-Orthodoxy in Russia - a movement that led to Abyssinia receiving modern armaments prior to the Italian invasion.
3. It triggered a new series of Russo-Turkish and Balkan wars which saw a crumbling of the Ottoman toehold in Europe.
4. The naval battle of Navarino Bay destroyed Turkish / Egyptian seapower, sundering the links between Anatolia and the North African provinces.
5. Accelerated the rate of Ottoman decline.
6. Provided a prototype for later anti-Ottoman nationalist revolts.

[Leman]

Somehow I don't think the Poles, Russians, Belgians, Hungarians, Germans, Danes, USA, Mexico or the whole of South America would say that nothing of note happened between 1815 and 1851.

[Dr Dave]

Spanish American war?

Not that many battles
Knocked Spain out as a global power (and a European one)
Gave the USA an empire in one fell swoop and set her up as the new global power.

[Leman]

Yes, always makes me smile when American politicians start to complain about the imperial ambitions of the European powers. The Roman republic adequately demonstrated that you don't need an emperor to have an empire.

[FierceKitty]

Yes, always makes me smile when American politicians start to complain about the imperial ambitions of the European powers. The Roman republic adequately demonstrated that you don't need an emperor to have an empire.

Oh, yes, you do.

[Techno]

Ooooooh......Is it Panto time ?

HE'S BEHIND YOU. !

Cheers - Mr Muppet.

[fsn]

I'm going with Mr Holmes's eminently sensible suggestion that the Greek War of Independece, specifically the Battle of Navarino as a marker of the decline of Ottoman power. Also the last major sea battle entirely under sail.

I also like Dr Dave's idea of the Spanish American War for the death of Spanish imperialism and the birth of the "American Century". Perhaps (although it wasn't really a battle, the loss of the Maine?)

Lemmey's suggestions don't show the Empire in a good light - so are discounted.


No takers for Tsushima or Port Arthur?

[Leman]

Nah, the Japanese thing was a fleeting 40 years, and anyway the other side of the world. Kitty, your first entry clearly shows you are away with the faeries. Oh no you don't ! 

[mollinary]

One half of my Higher History syllabus at school was Great Britain and Europe: 1815-1913 and I am convinced by that course that absolutely nothing of any significance at all happened in that period in those locations.

I was so enthused by the course that I answered questions on The Armies and Generalship of Gustavus Adolphus, The Borders Of The Roman Empire from the Reforms of Marius to the Death of Marcus Aurelius and The Code Napoleon ... to the horror of my History teacher who presumed I knew nothing about any those.

I got an "A" pass and the school History Prize out of it.

I am sure what you wrote on those subjects was brilliant, but the idea that nothing significant happened in Europe betwen 1815-1914 must be a sad reflection on your teachers! The battles of Koniggratz (1866) and Sedan (1870)  transformed Europe, and set the stage for two world wars. Austria was expelled from Germany, ending half a millenium of domination, and then France wa dethroned as the premier military power in Europe. In five years Prussia redefined the continent. Hardly 'nothing of any significance'!

[fsn]

Mollinary's suggestions are adopted. I've also been reading up about the Italians and have added Solferino.

So we've got:

Battle of Navarino, 1827: The decline of Ottoman power and the last major sea battle entirely under sail.
Battles of Magenta and Solferino, 1859.  Crucial battles of the Risorgimento, the birth of the Red Cross and a new colour for the paint box.
Battle of Koniggratz, 1866: Prussia comes to dominate Germany
Battle of Sedan, 1870: France dethroned as Europe's premier major power
The Loss of the Maine, 1898: Birth of the American Century

Gentlemen. Are we agreed? I think these are a fine addition to Sir E's volume.

May I be permitted to slide in a little chapter as an end piece? I'd like to add The Bombing of Ain Zara, 1911 in Libya during the Italo-Turkish War. This was the first use of aerial bombing and a fitting introduction to warfare in the new century.   

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Missed Mars-La-Tours 1870 and von Bredlow's Death Ride and Gravelotte-Saint Privat

[mollinary]

Missed Mars-La-Tours 1870 and von Bredlow's Death Ride and Gravelotte-Saint Privat

All great battles, but Sedan settled the matter. Capturing the Emperor, however embarrassing it was to both sides, was a politically decisive, as well as militarily decisive, moment. None of the others you mention meet those criteria.