AT Rfiles

[sjb1001]

Looking at the AT rifle rule only hitting on a 6 against any type of armour - I can accept the comment that many AT rifles were largely obsolete facing medium tanks etc. but the rule covers everything from 7.92mm ammo up to the heavy 20mm Lahti, Solothurn and Type 97 weapons, the middle runners in the .50 cal up to 14.5mm also had a punch.

I think that this is a bit harsh, especially early war and against even later war light armour (especially given an open topped heavy tank destroyer can be hit with small arms fire). I can appreciate a catch all rule for some of these weapons but to put a 20mm cannon in the same bag as a tungsten core 7.92mm.

I know it's a detail thing but the Finns in particular used them to great effect - I think a heavy and light designation should be used in the context of the time period - a Boys AT rifle would worry Panzer I/II and early mark III, 35t etc. but in 1941 desert it will only really knock holes in APC or light armoured cars. Kursk still saw them as a threat to armour in ambush and massed units killed enough tanks to be noted in AAR.

Would give light ATR a short range and hit on a 6 but the heavies should be similar to the equivalent auto-cannon calibres - thoughts?

[Leon]

This was a change from the feedback group as they were originally a little more powerful.  The feeling was that the number of them contained in a platoon, combined with their impact on a platoon of tanks, plus the damage they would inflict per vehicle, should make it harder to damage the opponent's unit in the game.

[Aksu]

I am perfectly happy with making AT rifles less powerful. Earlier in our games, if there were no historical OOBs the Soviets would use massed AT rifle upgrades to decimate German armor. Yes, I know they did advocate massed AT rifle fire, but the game effects were devastating in our experience.
Cheers,
Aksu

[Ithoriel]

At last! A use for the "fragile" tag! Damaged by A/T rifles as normal, not merely on a 6.

[sjb1001]

Can see the balance point - I only ever do scenarios based on historical so spamming ATRs never occurred to me......

[FierceKitty]

Decimation of armoured units would be a very light rate of loss!

[Steve J]

One thing I can't figure is that ATR Platoons have 2/60 as an AP stat, which is nearly as good as an HMG. I would have thought 2/30 or 3/30 is right. Thoughts?

[sjb1001]

2/6 is correct from the lists and means that an AT rifle is more effective against a dug in target at 60cm than a Somua or Char B-1 bis in France.

[sjb1001]

How the hell did I miss the spelling of Rifles in the header..... Shaw - don't answer.

[Dr Dave]

In BKCII they were AT 1/20 with no AP value. Although they were occasionally used for sniping this was discouraged in case armour rocked up and there was no ammo left. I think the Finns persisted with the sniping role.

[Dr Dave]

Hang on - what is an anti-tank rifle platoon?

Certainly in the Commonwealth and German armies there's no such thing. You'd have an infantry platoon that carried an AT rifle (usually ONE). Hence in BKCII they're an upgrade carried by a normal unit and only have an AT of 1/20.

[sediment]

I'd assumed a rifle platoon with an AT rifle, by analogy with PIAT platoon etc in the Africa lists.

[Ithoriel]

In BKCII they were AT 1/20 with no AP value. Although they were occasionally used for sniping this was discouraged in case armour rocked up and there was no ammo left. I think the Finns persisted with the sniping role.

Russians apparently used them as super sniper rifles throughout the war.

The Russian PTRD fired a massive 1,011-grain projectile (the standard .30-caliber rifle bullet of the day was only around 150 grains) with a 597-grain hardened steel or tungsten penetrator and an internal charge of incendiary material. With a muzzle velocity of 3,300 feet per second it was effective against PzIII and PzIV side, rear, top and underside armour. Shurtzen were initially deployed not for protection against Bazookas and the like but to counter Russian A/T Rifles.

Against Panthers and Tigers the Russians would attempt to deploy around 10 anti-tank rifles per German Zug and target vision ports and other vulnerable points. Even the crew of the mighty Tiger struggle if they can't see anything

Female Soviet AT Rifle crews were 3-person rather than the two-person male crews because the things were so big and unweildy!

The Soviets had platoons of 27 AT Rifles and Infantry Battalions had 9 or so integral to the unit, grouped together when tank hunting.

Soviet doctrine even suggested officers might give orders to AT Rifle teams to engage aircraft at ranges of up to 500 metres.

Lumbering, Sniper and AA abilities anyone?

[Dr Dave]

I'd assumed a rifle platoon with an AT rifle, by analogy with PIAT platoon etc in the Africa lists.

Good point on the Russians. They did use them en masse. Clever Ivan.

But the British?

The PIAT platoon has the same stats as a PIAT upgraded infantry platoon in BKCII. The 1942+ is, I fear, rather generous. They were first issued in Sicily in 1943!

The ATR platoon is a fictitious formation. It never existed in Commonwealth armies. You'd see normal infantry platoon with one ATR weapon. These were then replaced with PIAT.

[Aksu]

Anyone interested in Soviet AT rifles should watch Sergei Bondarchuk's 1975 movie "They fought for their country http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073488/ which tells the story of an AT rifle platoon retreating after the 1942 disasters.
One should also note the same vintage rifles are still used today in the Ukrainian conflict, at least by the pro-russian side.
The Finnish rifles were allegedly used  post war to shoot open safes in bank heists.
Cheers,
Aksu