Sudan 1880 & 90s

[paulr]

I'm considering a new project, Sudan at the end of the 19th century

Can anyone point me at any good online sources?

At the moment I'm looking for orders of battle, including numbers and information of weapons used, particularly rifles types.

I assume all the British used Martini Henry rifles or similar but what about the Egyptians, Sudanese and Mahdi's forces...

[Maenoferren]

Egyptians were using the Remington 0.433 rolling block rifle until 1885. The Mhadists got an awful lot of them after the the early Egyptian defeats. They also captured a lot of Krupp artillery and other nasty stuff.
As for online resources I am away South until Friday so can't access my links back home. What Order of battle are you after?

[paulr]

Thanks for the prompt response Maenoferren

So the Remington 0.433 rolling block rifle was a cartridge weapon with similar performance to the Martini Henry, was anyone still using muzzle loaded weapons?

I'm at the very beginning of this potential project so I'm not sure what I need

I'm looking for orders of battles to get a feel for the size of the "typical" battles and also to confirm the typical strengths of units

My initial thoughts are to use Volley & Bayonet at the Battalion scale (each stand being a battalion 400-600 men and larger Mahdist units of 600-1200 men)

I'm attracted by the asymmetrical forces and the variety of troop types within each side

I'm open to suggestions for other Colonial conflicts as well

[Maenoferren]

Regarding other conflicts I prefer the Sudan to say the Zulu wars as for me there are lots of different ' native' troop types. Go strong into the desert (  Col Snook the Perry book) has orders for battle fro the early battles up to the fall of Khartoum.  Snook's 'Beyond the Reach of Empire looks at the desert column  battles. Also the  Black Powder supplement gives most battles too.

[paulr]

I have very similar thoughts about the Zulu wars, the Zulu's would be very one dimensional

The terrain for the Afghan wars would be more challenging than Sudan

I'm looking for Internet resources until I have made up my mind

[Sandinista]

This thread aroused my curiosity, I have just read about the battle of Omdurman. My conclusion is that you will need a dustpan and brush to remove the casualties 

Cheers
Ian

[Maenoferren]

Omdurman was a pretty one sided affair with the odd exception. Hector Macdonald's Sudanese were hard pressed and he had to constantly reposition them. But at the end of the day the use of artillery opening fire at over a mile and a half followed by Maxim fire and hollow point bullets meant things would never end well for the Ansar.
As one eyewitness put it "They could never get near and they refused to hold back. ... It was not a battle but an execution."
One of the reasons I tend to stick to the earlier period.

[paulr]

That's the period of the war that interests me, small regular forces trying to hold off or force their way through larger irregular forces

[Maenoferren]

I am going to run an imaginary attempt to relieve Khartoum from Suakin to Berberin 1885. Lt. Col Stewart very kindly left information on distances, where the wells were and other useful things. Interestingly enough Wolsey had this information but decided on the longer and, to be honest, the wrong route.

[toxicpixie]

The BBB Yahoo group has some people who've done scenarios for the Sudan, IIRC? Might be a good starting place for ideas!

[FierceKitty]

When I did the whole nine yards as a games-mastered campaign a while ago, Omdurman was a welcome morale-booster for the British-Egyptian player, who never got near Khartoum in the earlier phase.

[Leman]

Science versus Pluck is currently available from Wargame Vault at a reasonable price. It is also written for small scale figures and focuses on desert columns. An interesting innovation is that you set up your column on table, and then instead of moving it forward you move the terrain past it. At some point the Fuzzies will appear and it then plays like a normal game.

[toxicpixie]

Should probably mention Peter Pig's "Patrols in the Sudan" as well - it's aimed at about the level of SvsP (I think), a column's worth of troops in an irregular environment with much need for scouting and sense

[Maenoferren]

We have had a fair few goes at SvP and I do like them. They worked quite well. We even had Dervish breaking and running down the face of a square.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hello Paulr and Leman

Science versus Pluck is currently available from Wargame Vault at a reasonable price. It is also written for small scale figures and focuses on desert columns. An interesting innovation is that you set up your column on table, and then instead of moving it forward you move the terrain past it. At some point the Fuzzies will appear and it then plays like a normal game.

There is a version available for free download at http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Science_Vs_Pluck if you'd like to 'suck it and see'  . Pony Wars style game.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[JeffNNN]

One thing if you want a feel for the period then have a look at Churchill's "The River War".  It does have some oob's if I recall correctly?  (My copy is in the loft) Just remember that at this stage he was "a young man on the make". I always like the reference to his WW1 history by someone I'm too lazy to google. "Winston has written a big book about himself and called it 'The World Crisis'!"

[paulr]

Thanks Grumpy et al

Our group plays quite a bit of Volley & Bayonet and a friend of a friend down in Christchurch has developed a V&B variant for the Sudan so we will probably give that a bash before perhaps incorporating some parts of the other V&B Sudan variations floating around.

We already play about 8 different rule sets and 15-20 periods/variants 
So would prefer not to add another rule set if we can avoid it

I came across an OoB for El Teb and Tamai and could probably do those with about 400 figures but there weren't any Egyptians or Madhist cavalry or ...

Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures Not really a side project any more

The battle of Ginnis is perhaps more the sort of battle I'm looking at; 6-10 battalions of various sorts in two Brigades with a small brigade of cavalry and supporting machine guns and artillery.

Any OoBs for this or similar battle would be of real interest.

Also any information on the mix of Mahdist forces would be useful, most of the info I have found so far talks in suspiciously round total numbers not even breaking down foot, mounted or guns.

[Maenoferren]

I am back home drop me a PM and I will sort you some OOB's out

[Sandinista]

Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures Not really a side project any more

I know that feeling, I bought a few figures from the LoA range so I could do the battle of Vienna, nearly 4000 figures later... 

Cheers
Ian

[Maenoferren]

A couple of lists of the Mahdist oob

For Mahdist forces for Abu Klea...
Berber contingent:
250 horse + 1750 foot
Plus 60 'turncoat' Egyptian riflemen
Metemmeh contingent
2000 foot
Main force
4-6000 of which 400 were rifles.

For Abu Kru:
7-8000 of which up to 1000 could have been cavalry. 5 Baqqara emirs were killed in the battle.

The problem with the Mahdist numbers is that they seem to be guesswork.  In the various reports or letters the numbers vary for example after Ginnis there seems to be no official despatches relating to this. Wingate gives the casualties as 500 killed and 300 wounded, but Haggard states the casualty claims were too high (but then again he normally give different figures to the official ones) but figures on the Mahdist forces on the frontier range from 4000 to 6000. They had both rifles and at least 5 cannon.

General Butler commanded the 1st Brigade with the 1st Berkshires, the West Kents, the 2nd Durham Light Infantry, one camel battery (six guns) Egyptian artillery, with a sixty-man escort from the 3rd Egyptians, and the 11th Company R.E. Colonel Huyshe,who commanded the Berkshires at Tofrek, commanded the 2nd Brigade with the Yorkshire Regiment, six companies of the Cameron Highlanders, two companies (152 men) of the IXth Sudanese, 278 men of the 1st Egyptians, the 3rd Company (39 men) of the Egyptian Camel Corps, a detachment of the British Camel Corps (the last time such a unit appeared in the Sudan), one mule battery (screw guns) of the 2nd battery, 1st Brigade, South Irish Division R.A., and two Gardner guns. ort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).

The mounted troops under Colonel Blake consisted of the 1st Company (11 men) Egyptian Camel Corps, one company Mounted Infantry (referred to in one dispatch as the Royal Highlanders Mounted Infantry), the 20th Hussars, and one squadron ~57 men) of the Egyptian cavalry. Two companies of the IXth Sudanese were left in Barrow's zariba opposite Fort Kosha on the west bank, 200 men of the 3rd Egyptians were at Mograka Fort, one company of the Camerons in Kosha fort and one company Camerons with one Krupp gun in the redoubt outside the fort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).

The Durham's had left their red coats in Cairo so we're in khaki.

I