Question about Impetus Baroque

[Zippee]

One thing we did miss was the complete change to the victory conditions - we had wondered why it was possible to withdraw units voluntarily from the field.  

Now I understand why - exhausted units count their VD to command loss, eliminated units count double VD to command loss. Once a command reaches 0 VDC all units test discipline every turn, failure means its eliminated, commands can disappear wholesale quickly! So as soon as you are close, start withdrawing the used up crud. Once the army VDT reaches 0 - game over, army routs. There are also nice touches in that Baggage and occupied villages count towards your army VDT (the prossies help here too  )

Only down side is that it can lead to the command being reduced to a sort of single super unit with attached general - I'm sure that will be the tournament approach. Not that that worries me but I'm sure it'll get mentioned.  

The more we review the game the more completely sold on the revised Reaction system over the old Opportunity and ZOC system, no more geometry or micro measuring, just plenty of decision nodes. We hadn't appreciated at first that reactions were limited to one attempt per unit per turn, not one reaction. As you have different options depending on what the enemy is doing and different chances of success depending on what you are/they are doing it leads to some great narrative moments.

For instance we had gallopers watching trotters advancing past them - do they attempt to opportunity charge (allowed against moving units) but with a significant chance of failure, or wait for them to declare a charge when you can counter-charge (which for gallopers is pretty much a dead cert) but what if they just move into position and don't charge, lost opportunity. Not to mention you might want to keep the reaction for later, etc. Great stuff, total involvement all the time but without watching for geometric infringement, just observing for an opportunity. More like commanding, less like rules lawyering  

In the end we had precisely one question unresolved, not bad for a first game and indicates how much more clearly written Baroque is compared to Impetus. Which bodes well for Impetus II.

Oh the question: once withdrawn does a unit still count as exhausted for VDC calculation if it was already exhausted. In fact do withdrawn units count as exhausted regardless. We could see this both ways. Anyway one question which is more clarification than anything, not bad for a first game.

Highly recommended  

[FierceKitty]

Double VD? I don't think I want to know....

[Zippee]

It's an unfortunate abbreviation but that's Italians for you  

And I've just had a clarification and update from Lorenzo on the Impetus Forum which I'll quote here as it's good news 

oh, yes they count. Once a Unit is exhausted it immediately counts over the Victory Conditions. Then it is up to you to decide to withdraw or risk to loose more. Or you can also withdraw a Unit before being Exhausted.

Impetus 2 will be based on the same reaction system. Baroque was the occasion to test some different ideas. Impetus 2 should be a mix of Impetus (as we know now) and Baroque. Of course this in theory, as playtesting will help to tune the whole thing.

We have draft of more Baroque lists. Those published were those tested. Just the time to check the points (we changed here and there but working on the tested list and so I have to check that the other lists have the updated points) and I will upload.
In the future I will publish the official supplement but I prefer to test the lists before that as betas.
Also, in the official lists I want to add Characters like Wallenstein, Rupert, Gustavus Adolphus, Tilly etc

Well I think that's good news - Impetus II will have Reaction not Opportunity, huzzah! 

[Leman]

That really is a bonus. Cheers for that Zippee.

[d_Guy]

Thanks for the play test and review. The reaction rules do seem well conceived and -as you said- add interesting sets of decision points (rather than simply mechanical responses).  Also the way units degrade seems to have its own set of decision points.
I am about to do the "battle" of Fyvie with my own rules but will then redo with Baroque to see if I can fiddle my force structures to work.
I would like nothing better than a standard rules set that I can use with my eccentric (solo) gaming that would allow others to relate to it 

[Leman]

Continuing to read through the rules and I'm beginning to see how Impetus could be tidied up and streamlined. I hope the competition boys don't get their teeth into these and ruin them with demands for this tweak and that tweak to satisfy their competetive whims. I have currently dumped all the tweaks to the original Impetus and just play the original rules, replacing opportunity with discipline reaction.

[Zippee]

The competition heads on the Impetus Forum do not seem to be engaging with any discussion of Baroque.

Perhaps it's too new 

I actually quite like most of the "tweaks" presented in Advanced Impetus (naturally I ignore all the terrain placement and tournament deployment rule stuff) but things like the bonus support for covered flanks works well.

Obviously stripping ZOC and declared Opportunity for Discipline Test Reaction is a big change - not sure how my lads would feel about that. But as I think we'll be concentrating on Baroque for some while it's probably moot. With luck Impetus II will be out by then anyway 

Oh, I've just realised that in all my comments above I neglected to mention one other obvious and significant change from Impetus. There are no Group Moves or Group Formations in Baroque, each base (or collection of bases, depending on preference) is its own thing - kind of like Battlegroups in FOG I suppose.

And I failed my Will save and sent Leon a starter order for ECW/TYW stuff, oops! Better finish the last unit of Napoleonics quick then 

[AndyT]

What's an average Baroque army like in terms of size. Just trying to guage how many figures might be needed.

(And should I not bother with my ideas for an ECW variant of "Warband"?)

[Leman]

An interesting question. The author stipulates a relatively small number of figures needed (about 150). However, if you look at the 28mm photos in the rules the units look pretty thin for my taste. Even my 28mm units are twice the size of his, but with the same footprint. However my preferred scale is 15mm for ECW and I have modelled my armies along the lines of Fat Frank. I think this style would look terrific in 10mm as well.

There is a link to Fat Frank's site on the Peter Pig website at the end of the ECW section. Well worth a look for Baroque inspiration in any scale.

[Zippee]

Hard to estimate numbers of figures as there is no relationship between troop type and numbers as there is in say FOG.

The 600 point (smallish but enough for an evening) ECW game we played as our trial was basically as follows:

Each side had 4 Horse units (Gallopers, Trotters or Reiters depending on doctrine but all essentially the same look); 6 Pike & Musket units, a light gun, 1 C-in-C and 2 Sub-Commanders.

The ECW lists each allow for around 12 Horse, 12 P&M, 2 Dragoon, 2 Commanded Shot, 1 Forlorn Hope, 2 guns, 4 commanders and a Baggage Park if that helps

Basing convention for 10mm is not established as its brand new but the rulebook suggests two options:
a) use the 15mm sizes with more figures
b) use half the 28mm sizes with 15mm measurements
(usually measurement is in units equal to half the unit frontage, 9cm for 28mm figs and 6cm for 15mm figs - presumably they don't want to impose 4.5cm movement on you  )

Anyway I'm going with the 15mm standard using more figures 

As such each Horse unit will be a 120mm x 40mm (30mm as an option) base - I reckon that'll be 12 to 16 figures or thereabouts in 10mm. Each Pike & Musket unit will be 120mm x 40mm (60mm as an option) - I reckon I'll get about 48 figures on that. Guns are on 40mm square bases. Commanders how you see fit - I'll use circles with 2-4 officers.

Bear in mind this is theoretical until Leon gets my order in the post and I can do some mock-ups. We're testing the rules with my 6mm units (on 60x30mm bases which has the advantage of meaning the game plays comfortably on a 3' table) 

Of course you can optionally use smaller bases to make up the units - so something like 6 FOG bases (to get the 40mm depth) which essentially means a Baroque unit is a FOG Battlegroup. I just like the diorama effect and ease of movement of one big base. It limits using them for other rules though, so horses/courses as usual. I think landsknechts and tercios on 120mm square bases, packed with deployed figures will look the business though 

The other option is to use half the size of 28mm units, which results in 90mm frontage for 10mm (presumably that could be multiple 30mm bases too). By the same token you could put any smaller bases together so long as you achieve a consistent unit frontage.

[Zippee]

There is a link to Fat Frank's site on the Peter Pig website at the end of the ECW section. Well worth a look for Baroque inspiration in any scale.

Hmm, I think you mean Fat Wally - not sure Kev will take to being renamed Frank 

Direct link to Kev's Basic Baroque pages - http://www.fat-wally.com/BasicBaroqueECW.html

[mollinary]

Hard to estimate numbers of figures as there is no relationship between troop type and numbers as there is in say FOG.

Basing convention for 10mm is not established as its brand new but the rulebook suggests two options:
a) use the 15mm sizes with more figures
b) use half the 28mm sizes with 15mm measurements

As such each Horse unit will be a 120mm x 40mm (30mm as an option) base - I reckon that'll be 12 to 16 figures or thereabouts in 10mm. Each Pike & Musket unit will be 120mm x 40mm (60mm as an option) - I reckon I'll get about 48 figures on that. Guns are on 40mm square bases. Commanders how you see fit - I'll use circles with 2-4 officers.

Well that is a fortunate coincidence! My 10mm are currently based for Volley and bayonet on 1 1/2" squares.  I get three of these in one of my Warbases movement trays. So that is 3x37.5mm wide by 37.5mm deep. With the edges of  the movement base that comes to just over 120mm by 47mm!   I get between 15 and 18 horse on one of those bases, and 40 infantry  (so few because my musketeers are in two ranks of 10 while the pikes are four ranks of 4. Add in officers and colours, and you get about 40.

I wish postie would hurry up!

Mollinary

[Zippee]

Sounds like you're all sorted then 

My postie has been - he had several bills for me!

Bills, they're no good to me, I can't play with bills. I can pay 'em but that's not as much fun. 

[Leman]

Sorry Zippee, your quite right. Fat Frank is the roads man and Fat Wally is the 15mm figure painter.

[AndyT]

Thanks for the replies chaps. Much appreciated.

[Bodvoc]

OK, I give in, just ordered a copy

[Zippee]

Good man!

Pretty sure you wont regret it 

On the other hand it cost me a sizeable order with Pendraken 

But that's Ok as the profit from that will keep Leon in sun tan oil for the Summer 

[d_Guy]

But that's Ok as the profit from that will keep Leon in sun tan oil for the Summer 

Ah - the sun actually DOES shine there then!

[Zippee]

Middlesbrough?

Sure it's all beach resorts and swimming pools down on the Teesside Riviera

[Ithoriel]

You've never been there then Zippee?

A more wretched hive of scum and villainy ....