Question about Impetus Baroque

[mollinary]

I went to their website, went to the shop, and bought a copy via PayPal. I will let folks know when it arrives.

Mollinary

Arrived this morning - a week isn't bad coming from Italy over the long holiday weekend.  Looks good, but not yet had a lot of time to read through.

Mollinary

[Leman]

It still has a few quirks in the English version, where there appear to be literal translations rather than colloquial English, like what she is spoken, but it does play well, having had some games down the Liverpool club.

[Zippee]

You've never been there then Zippee?

A more wretched hive of scum and villainy ....

I was born there mate. . .

[d_Guy]

OK - I really like Baroque! So much in fact that I am on the verge of making a total commitment to it. I have used my kit-bashed rules but simply can't get them to the point where I am happy (plus too much effort that could be spent on other things).

For my Celtic Fringe (17th century) stuff I have had to add a few new troop types AND I had to do one major breakage - allow some troop types to be grouped in a couple specific ways. Turns out that I now also own Impetus and discover that it allows units to be grouped! Baroque has the concept of "Massed Unit" but no mention of grouping. Any thoughts on grouping and why it was left out of Baroque?

Incidentally I have not play-tested (solo) with groups sufficiently to know if they WILL work.

I am going to join the Impetus forum but I now consider this home (for good or ill😀) and wanted to start here with my queries.

[Zippee]

The absence of groups in Baroque is a good thing IMO.

Groups were a forced abstract to reinforce battlelines instead of firework displays of individual units, common in many ancients games under other rules.

With the larger bases and self-imposed battalia and tercio type units (and exactly what scale representation these are is left deliberately vague) which already have the subunits operating together the need to artificially glue stuff together is not needed.

Now in Impetus command range is much greater and the morale system is very different, such that a general's influence can be passed down entire lines of groups, so your warband of celts 12 bases/units long is still in command even if C class, as long as none of the units are disordered as the command range is automatic through contiguous ordered units.

In Baroque the VD concept of exhausted and withdrawn with much smaller command ranges from generals not permanently attached to specific units means that commands must form in greater depth in chequer board or multi wave formations if they are to stay in range. A Poor Command rating only has a range of 2BU - you just cant keep many units within that unless they are in front and behind - 3 wide is your limit.

In short groups don't stand alone they are integrated into the morale and command system.

Massed units are similar but not the same as Impetus Large Units - combat is entirely different as is the formation of the unit.

Many of the developments in Baroque are making their way into Impetus II but its unclear whether the refined morale system will and the jury is also out on the necessity to keep groups. I doubt large units will remain in the way they are currently.

There is a whole thread ion the Impetus Forum dedicated to suggestions for Impetus II and another for suggestions for inclusion in Advanced Impetus (the downloadable, annually updated errata and additional rules addition) wherein ideas are tested and then changed, adapted or dropped after a year's or so playtesting

[d_Guy]

Zippee thanks for the thoughtful and useful reply.
I have been sorting through the threads on the "New" Impetus forum and applied for posting privileges (maybe they'll let me on  )
While Baroque does not specify a specific ground scale or operational level it seems to me it would play best at brigade level. I am forcing it down one level (where so far it seems to work). The base (sabot) I am using with 10mm figures is 80mm x 40mm which comfortably accommodates three of my 1x1" stands. This gives the ability to easily assemble different unit types.

I am interested primarily in reproducing historic battles and playing them solo (out of necessity).  My particular interest is warfare in Scotland and Ireland during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. This often deals with armies whose Command Structures (CS) are poor (you have already mentioned the 2BU control span and the constrains it imposes) AND widely varying unit size. My sabot bases produce horse units of about 75 (six figures), warbands of around 90 (12 -14 figures), and up to 300 (20-24 figures) for a Musket&Pike (P&M) unit. Frequently, of course, the historic Order of Battle will require around 600 for the P&M unit. So in this particular case I am grouping two P&Ms into a single unit aligned side-by-side (and won't wheeling be a glacial process!). I will admit that the side-by-side unit does reduce the problem of a poor CS but not sufficiently -IMO- to greatly effect the excellent point you made about rightly forcing you to use historic formations (Checker boarding, etc.). Greater depth to the base (as is done for tercios) would of course work but ignores the beginning of the transition to linear tactics in my period of interest.

I set up on a 5' x 6.5' surface which allows in 10mm for plenty of maneuver room for most scenarios. I had previously worked out a ground scale of 6" equals 100 yards (or meters) which gives me a systematic way to reproduce battlefields from maps (although selective compression is sometimes necessary). Because of the available space I am currently using base width (80mm) as 1 BU (rather than 1/2)

I Don't have enough data yet to know if the paired P&Ms will work. If it doesn't I will simply use two separate P&Ms and deal with it (in some ways it would be like using Pike & Shotte). I am continuing to like the Baroque system so much I'm ready to make a full commitment to it. (Let's not tell my wife! )

The other grouping applications I'm messing with involves "depth" grouping to form mass units. For example a clan levy warband grouped behind a "first line" highland warband (but without the VBU additive effect used in Impetus.)

I like the way the VDT works and will start incorporating it into the scenario work-ups that I do for historic battles. If I played against other humans it would be the way to go.

Also the action - reaction (and /or evasion) mechanism is very good - although reading the rules on these points was at first rather opaque and getting the meaning of some of the sentences a chore (Not that I write clear sentences either). Still - coupled with the initiative/activation and the decision to chance further movement - it seems to lend itself well to solo play.

[Zippee]

No problem,
Playing solo you're very much free to dabble with tweaks to your hearts content.
Your area of interest is somewhat to the edge of mainstream, so it may well be that tweaks are necessary.

In fact I may go so far as to say that the level of warfare is such that Impetus is almost the more appropriate set of rules with some of the elements of Baroque grafted on.

I do think you tie yourself in knots trying to apply logical consistent ground and time scales to wargames, you say Baroque feels brigade based, I think it feels battalia based but the army size is bathtubbed so the battalia represent brigades.

If paired P&M units are the size you need for basic units then that should really be what one unit is. Your table size is pretty large by the standards of the game so I wonder if that's part of the scaling issue? As does the fact you're using 80mm bases with an 80mm BU - try switching to 160mm bases with 80mm BU, you effectively have your units fitting the same footprint as before.

I'm not convinced about the double base unit of massed foot. Baroque massed units are a very different beast from Impetus large units.

As I say you may be in a sub period that lends itself to Impetus with Baroque elements rather than Baroque itself.

I know that Lorenzo is talking about other armies and areas having supplemental rules alongside the lists so that may be true for you. For instance he's admitted to developing a WSS supplement with tweaks to extend Baroque into the 18th C.

Food for thought

[d_Guy]

Again appreciate your comments and your clear experience with the Impetus system. Have now read many of your posts at their forums (old and new) which are also helpful in informing my thinking. In fact they should consider making you a forum moderator over there . I am still waiting to be approved to post.

Yeah - I am definately out of the mainstream in the selection of my wargaming focus. It is hard to glean lots of information about how some forces were armed, organized, and fought since they have such a mythic and cultural component (which in turn incites passionate opinion).

Also have reached back to Advanced Impetus for ideas and play-tested concepts - it may be that Impetus II will be a more seamless join with Baroque. I found yesterday an experimental list of armies that Lorenzo did for Baroque (still using the Impetus BU values) which includes some of the troop types I need. These will need work but a good basis for discussion.

You've again brought up good points about basing and ground scale. I still have the problem of larger P&M on one side opposing smaller P&M with some indigenous forces mixed in on the other (hence your suggestion about using Impetus I think). Incidentally I am now about to port my WoR to Impetus basing. In for a penny in for a pound.

[Zippee]

You're very welcome, glad I've been of some assistance.

The Impetus Forum sadly isn't what it once was as there's quite a tournament crowd peddling their brand of interpretation and opinion  these days and at times getting a bit snotty. To the extent that I'd pretty much demoted myself to lurker until Baroque finally arrived.

I took the basing plunge a few years back - it was an undertaking to be sure but worth it in the end, not least because everything now has a uniform basing scheme, same basing grit, same flock, same bases, etc.

[Bodvoc]

Just got home from holiday to find my copy of Baroque waiting for me. I am looking forward to reading it later.