First look at the new WWII Polish!

[Dave]

There are actually only a few poses that work anyway for riflemen in any period.

Firing
Loading
at port / guard
at trail
shouldered(?)
firing from the waist

These can be standing, walking or running.

The first three can be done kneeling

Then prone you have basically firing or not firing.

Yes, I know there are variations on a theme. We all remember the Airfix British Para who was machine gunning the sky, and the awful bayonetting the ground figures from the ACW ranges, but for sensible poses that's about it. 

Once you mix support weapons and officers into the bases, then three poses is plenty.

I always get extra poses done once all the intitial figures are completed anyway


Dave

[Sunray]

Not my period, but neat looking figures.   The three infantry standing/kneeling figures would do well for a 1939 ere army.   Soldiers do tend to adopt uniform postures in combat - in the modern era even the GPMG gunner would  attempt to carry his weapon like a rifleman and blend in with the section.   Younger soldiers will always consciously mimic the veterans in how they carry their rifles .  And...when a Fire Control Order  is given, everyone put the butt to the shoulder and shoots.

The only additions I see for a perfect 5 man BKC base would be (a) BAR gunner advancing and (b) an NCO type figure. The Poles had no SMGs at this stage, but a sculpt depicting a hand gesture will denote rank.   The old Airfix range used to do a useful grenade thrower.  We tend to forget just how useful the grenade is as an indirect weapon.

[John Cook]

There are actually only a few poses that work anyway for riflemen in any period.

Firing
Loading
at port / guard
at trail
shouldered(?)
firing from the waist

These can be standing, walking or running.

The first three can be done kneeling

Then prone you have basically firing or not firing.

Yes, I know there are variations on a theme. We all remember the Airfix British Para who was machine gunning the sky, and the awful bayonetting the ground figures from the ACW ranges, but for sensible poses that's about it. 

Once you mix support weapons and officers into the bases, then three poses is plenty.

I'm afraid that I disagree that only a few poses work for riflemen or that three poses is plenty.  Three basic infantry figures, particularly this unimaginative bunch, does not provide sufficient variety for WW2, or any period from 1914 to the present, I'd say.

I also wonder how many officers are necessary – one per platoon – I don't know how many that means for you but even at a ratio of 1:1 you are only going to need one officer per platoon of, say 30 or more, riflemen figures.  I'm also not sure why support weapons would be mixed into rifle bases.   I keep mine on separate bases as, unless LMGs, they are usually part of a different company in the battalion structure.   

Be that as it may, take a look at Pendraken's principal competitor in the context of WW2.  Take a look at Pendraken's own Falkland's range.  Take a look, dare I say, at my figures in the CTV range, where I managed to sculpt what, I think, are five distinctive riflemen poses (more or less as you suggest in your list, though one of mine has grenade), plus an NCO and officer, which drew a specific positive comment about the mix of poses.  I admit that I was pleasing myself as I wanted some CTV figures and Leon and Dave were kind enough to indulge me.

At least I can agree with you where prone figures are concerned.  In an ideal world there would be a choice of prone and moving figures where support weapons are concerned but, until the perfect world arrives, I am content to convert my own where necessary.   

[Ithoriel]

For me "man with rifle" is the minimum for standard trooper poses for a modern range, any variations after that are gravy!

[Sunray]

I also wonder how many officers are necessary – one per platoon – I don't know how many that means for you but even at a ratio of 1:1 you are only going to need one officer per platoon of, say 30 or more, riflemen figures.  I'm also not sure why support weapons would be mixed into rifle bases.   I keep mine on separate bases as, unless LMGs, they are usually part of a different company in the battalion structure.   
   

Good for you.  Its  (a) a matter of choice and (b) the rules you use and (c) to a degree the period being gamed.

Officers fall into three distinct groups -  NCOS,  Field Officers and Senior Command. Lets keep it to the needs of gaming.  Two "units" of five figures per base.  To me that's close as you get to a section with its own transport - one soft skin lorry/APC  or two jeeps
The section leader is  a two stripe junior NCO and on one of the bases.    The section 2/IC can be denoted with a white stripe on arm etc.

Three such sections make a platoon -  with a senior NCO Sergeant type and a commissioned officer - a second lieutenant up to a captain.
The dichotomy between WW2 and modern is that in old style "fire and movement" the LMG in the section was one 'base' = the "Gun Group" and the other base was the "Rifle Group"
By 1990s -with full auto weapons - the section was two "fire groups" who mutually supported each other.  A Corporal led one and the Lance Corporal led the other.

In advancing to contact it would be standard practice for the LMG/GPMG gunner to be integrated into the section.  In gaming,  I would stress that this a matter of personal preference .  If you want separate bases, then go for it.    But an infantry base with an LMG in its ranks is obviously reflected in its table score when  the dice rolls.   

Just reading over this, I realise that Warminster School of Infantry  probably fixed me thinking the Brit way.   Polish troops had the BAR - did that shape their section tactics like the Americans prior to the introduction of the Garand ? 

[John Cook]

Not quite sure what you mean by "Good for you", Sunray, or the point of much of the rest of your post to be honest.  But, yes, it is always a matter of choice and opinion.  I presume I am allowed mine.

[Dave]

I'm afraid that I disagree that only a few poses work for riflemen or that three poses is plenty.  Three basic infantry figures, particularly this unimaginative bunch, does not provide sufficient variety for WW2, or any period from 1914 to the present, I'd say.

I also wonder how many officers are necessary – one per platoon – I don't know how many that means for you but even at a ratio of 1:1 you are only going to need one officer per platoon of, say 30 or more, riflemen figures.  I'm also not sure why support weapons would be mixed into rifle bases.   I keep mine on separate bases as, unless LMGs, they are usually part of a different company in the battalion structure.   

Be that as it may, take a look at Pendraken's principal competitor in the context of WW2.  Take a look at Pendraken's own Falkland's range.  Take a look, dare I say, at my figures in the CTV range, where I managed to sculpt what, I think, are five distinctive riflemen poses (more or less as you suggest in your list, though one of mine has grenade), plus an NCO and officer, which drew a specific positive comment about the mix of poses.  I admit that I was pleasing myself as I wanted some CTV figures and Leon and Dave were kind enough to indulge me.

At least I can agree with you where prone figures are concerned.  In an ideal world there would be a choice of prone and moving figures where support weapons are concerned but, until the perfect world arrives, I am content to convert my own where necessary.   

Good point John, I hadn't looked at it in that way for extra infantry poses, in the past money dicated the number of poses - so running, firing - mixed standing kneeling and prone, advancing, yes with the support weapons - Ive done this with the Lewis gunners in the ww1 range - possibly done too many figures as the prone don't sell!!!  Some figures like the ww2 French cavalry I've only done 1 mounted and 1 dismounted - I cann't see a great deal of sales.

Dave

[Ithoriel]

Currently the only 20th Century land warfare games I play regularly are Eastern Front BKC.

The problem, for me, with prone LMGs and A/T rifles is that they will be part of an infantry platoon stand and look odd when all the other figures are standing and also take up too much space on a base. So, for the Germans, I have the standing DAK LMG figure as part of my infantry stands not the prone versions that came in the army pack. Though to look on the bright side Dave, that does make an extra quid or two for Pendraken

My infantry stands are 6 figures - 4 riflemen, 1 LMG, 1 NCO with SMG for two stands of the company and an officer type replacing a rifleman for the third.

Stands that have an A/T weapon currently have a Panzerfaust armed figure replacing a rifleman though I'd like to do stands with A/T rifles, for Kursk and before, at some point.

[Steve J]

The Poles had no SMGs at this stage, but a sculpt depicting a hand gesture will denote rank.

From my info (Zaloga) they did have some, but not many. From memory US Tompsons and Finnish ones, but I'd have to check to be certain.

[Steve J]

On the poses, I'm pretty happy with them to be honest. They will fit in with my other BKCII bases as the poses are quite similar, so no problem from my end.

[fsn]

Soldiers do tend to adopt uniform postures in combat

Do they? I had a quick google to check.








I would say you're about right there Sunray. Perhaps fro WWII the best pose would be advancing with rifle at the hip?

[Sunray]

I am much obliged to my learned friend [FSN] for his diligent detective work in sourcing this evidence on which the case for uniform poses or limited poses now rests.

I would add a further caveat.  In the post war era, soldiers of different nations evolved different styles of carrying their rifles.

Americans carry the light M16 by the pistol grip - Israelis hook it to the chest harness to leave hands free.  Argies sling their FNs over the shoulder, but Para Toms and Bootnecks cradle the SLR - and SA80 - in a very distinctive way; hands clasped taking the weight on the web belt.  It is a habit born out of serving in Northern Ireland that both underplays the weapon - you can talk to civilians without being perceived as menacing, it is a very comfortable grip for a long tab, like the Falklands, and its relatively easy to throw the rifle up as opposed to unslinging it.   I have never seen a Brit using the carrying handle.  Well TA perhaps.

In terms of period.  WW1 was the age of advancing at high port, usually with bayonet fixed.   WW2 saw new squad weapons - the SMG and LMG.
You note how the Bren gunner blends in with the riflemen and even the Sten armed troops carry their light SMGs in the same style as the men with the Mk4s..  Yeah, advancing [walking] with weapon at the hip was probably the common WW2 style .

When giving Fire Control orders to a section to engage an advancing Red platoon, as they enter the Killing Ground,the targeting was as follows -  any target carrying bins - probably an officer- close to him will be the radio operator [both men gun group target] and then look for the LMG/GPMGs and then  Anti tank/RPGs specialist for your individual rifles.  In the first opening exchange you hope to have malleted their command, signals and ability to return suppressive fire.   You are well on the way to winning the firefight.


The Red force will be eyeballing you the same way as you advance to contact,  hence the need to look as uniform as possible.

With my new 1970s/80s Paras I have kept the last solider in the brick with rifle in the firing position.   His mates are moving...he's covering.

[FierceKitty]

The position of the camera suggests that these are not photographs from the hottest part of the action, mind you.

[John Cook]

The position of the camera suggests that these are not photographs from the hottest part of the action, mind you.

Indeed, and although most are either standing or walking not one is identical.  I'll bet both my pensions that I could find a similar set of photos where the poses are significantly different.

[John Cook]

Good point John, I hadn't looked at it in that way for extra infantry poses, in the past money dicated the number of poses - so running, firing - mixed standing kneeling and prone, advancing, yes with the support weapons - Ive done this with the Lewis gunners in the ww1 range - possibly done too many figures as the prone don't sell!!!  Some figures like the ww2 French cavalry I've only done 1 mounted and 1 dismounted - I cann't see a great deal of sales.

Dave
[/quote]

No, no prone please Dave, except perhaps were crewed weapons need it - typically LMGs firing.  

On variety, there are eight different marching and eight different advancing figures in the new ACW range.  This variety makes all the difference, I think, when putting an interesting stand of figures together, unless figures are just going to be convenient 'handles' with which to move 'counters'.      

Variety is even more important for modern ranges, in my opinion.  Here is an example of six different poses of men running.

[John Cook]

Here's another example.  As you can see, not one is the same

[fsn]

As to your previous, photo, I would suggest that there are two actions being carried out there. One is the charging forward, rifle held across the body, and the second is bayonetting a figure on the ground (which makes a fool of my Airfix ACW comment.)

I would also submit that soldiers very rarely sprint, and when they do they make awful poses. Trotting / walking seems a more appropriate stance, and there the range of movement is far less, particularly with similarly encumbered soldiers.   

I would humbly suggest that there are four "phases" that one could use for figure poses.

1) Moving forward in a non-hostile environment. Walking poses, rifles slung. Brits on patrol these days seem to have the rifle held across the body, barrel down.
2) Moving forward into contact. I would suggest that is the time that rifles are held at port, or from the waist, or at the trail. I watched a training video of he US Army in the early '60s. Their advance basically had two positions - one firing from the hip, the second firing from the shoulder. Watch modern US troops and they all seem to adopt a shouldered weapon, and that funny short stepped run. 
3) Firefight. Firing poses standing, kneeling, prone. Loading. Grenades. Or if we are to believe all we are told, one firing and 20 cowering in a foxhole.
4) Hand to hand. Bayonetting, clubbing, entrenching tools etc.

My preference is for 2). I would also suggest that just as in the US training video, there is probably a prescribed way of holding the weapon during this phase, and if not, there is a "natural" way of carrying it.

I do agree that within that prescribed way, there is variation. I like the fact that the Pendraken ACW has two or more poses in each "advancing" pack. I would also say that the Polish offerings from Pendraken suggest to me street fighting rather than say advancing over open country.

However I don't think Pendraken will be launching a "Polish WWII - hasty retreat" range soon.

I'll be honest, the poses in the Polish range are not my preferred. Will that stop me buying them? Probably not.

However, this (hijacked?) thread has made me think about the way troops move.

[Dave]

Good point John, I hadn't looked at it in that way for extra infantry poses, in the past money dicated the number of poses - so running, firing - mixed standing kneeling and prone, advancing, yes with the support weapons - Ive done this with the Lewis gunners in the ww1 range - possibly done too many figures as the prone don't sell!!!  Some figures like the ww2 French cavalry I've only done 1 mounted and 1 dismounted - I cann't see a great deal of sales.

Dave


No, no prone please Dave, except perhaps were crewed weapons need it - typically LMGs firing.  

On variety, there are eight different marching and eight different advancing figures in the new ACW range.  This variety makes all the difference, I think, when putting an interesting stand of figures together, unless figures are just going to be convenient 'handles' with which to move 'counters'.      

Variety is even more important for modern ranges, in my opinion.  Here is an example of six different poses of men running.

For the prone figures I was thinking of the falklands range - were they are only specialist weapons lmg teams, bazooka etc more poses, I've tried to address this with the ww1, but can see I need more with more officers.

Dave

[Dave]

For the prone figures I was thinking of the falklands range - were they are only specialist weapons lmg teams, bazooka etc more poses, I've tried to address this with the ww1, but can see I need more with more officers.

Dave

Also doing both standing and prone firing AKA lewis gunners

Dave

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Soldiers are taught to use specific positions, so a Lee Enfield is carried across the chest but down to the right, whilst an SLR is carried muzzle down with the but in the shoulder.

IanS