1866 Hanoverians

[paulr]

Thank you cameronian and mollinary

Both your passion for the period and your apologies are appreciated

[cameronian]

We are passionate about it, explains the heightened emotion that sometimes surfaces, sorry Andrew I was a bit out of order there.

[Chris Pringle]

Gents,

Flattered to see Bloody Big European Battles cited as a source. A certain amount of homework did go into it. I will dig out some references and post them here later this week.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info

[cameronian]

How does one obtain said publication, BBEB ?

[KTravlos]

I ordered mine from Caliver Books.

[Chris Pringle]

Some references as promised (thanks to Dr Nicholas Murray of the US Naval War College). I have paraphrased somewhat:

===

Spencer Wilkinson reckoned the best analysis of the tactics of 1866 was by Moritz Kuehne, Kritische und Unkritische Wanderungen ueber die Gefechtsfelder der Preussischen Armeen in Boehmen 1866.

The Saxon troops were considered to be of excellent quality and the Hannoverians to be very good. Most analyses focus on the Austrians. As you know, the Austrians adopted the mass attack in response to their experience in the war of 1859. I doubt that the Saxons or the Hannoverians copied the Austrians, and I have never seen anything that says they did. Furthermore, what I've read regularly mentions the Saxons 'dug in', which suggests that they were not inculcated with the offensive spirit of their Austrian counterparts. Mention is also made of the Saxon use of skirmishers, though I have no idea if this is anything more than Napoleonic style.

See also page 246-247 of Wright & Hozier, "The campaign of 1866 in Germany". This describes a Saxon infantry attack which sounds similar to the Prussian model. Then take a look at Gluenicke, "The campaign in Bohemia, 1866", and Anderson, "The Austro-Prussian War in Bohemia, 1866". The latter describes Stosstaktik. Clearly the two descriptions are different. The Austrians attack in battalion columns and the Saxons in company columns with skirmishers.

===

BBB and BBEB can be obtained from Caliver Books or Irregular Miniatures in the UK, or Brigade Games or On Military Matters in the US.

Hope this helps.
Chris

[Leman]

Certainly does Chris, and thanks for that. Have now sorted out an armoured train and gunboat from Irregular for the Villiers scenario.

[Chris Pringle]

Excellent - it just has to be done, doesn't it? I bodged up my own armoured railway guns using spare cannon from the Peter Pig 1/600 forts, on an Irregular flatcar, with cardboard walls. I imagine that's close enough to how they were actually constructed ... The Villiers game is a nice one. Extending the map to include Vinoy's force as well as Ducrot's opened up options and made it so much more interesting than if you just fight the frontal assault. I'll be very interested to hear how your game goes as and when you get to fight it.

Chris
(with apologies for digressing slightly from Hanoverian tactics of 1866)

[mollinary]

Some references as promised (thanks to Dr Nicholas Murray of the US Naval War College). I have paraphrased somewhat:

===

Spencer Wilkinson reckoned the best analysis of the tactics of 1866 was by Moritz Kuehne, Kritische und Unkritische Wanderungen ueber die Gefechtsfelder der Preussischen Armeen in Boehmen 1866.

The Saxon troops were considered to be of excellent quality and the Hannoverians to be very good. Most analyses focus on the Austrians. As you know, the Austrians adopted the mass attack in response to their experience in the war of 1859. I doubt that the Saxons or the Hannoverians copied the Austrians, and I have never seen anything that says they did. Furthermore, what I've read regularly mentions the Saxons 'dug in', which suggests that they were not inculcated with the offensive spirit of their Austrian counterparts. Mention is also made of the Saxon use of skirmishers, though I have no idea if this is anything more than Napoleonic style.

See also page 246-247 of Wright & Hozier, "The campaign of 1866 in Germany". This describes a Saxon infantry attack which sounds similar to the Prussian model. Then take a look at Gluenicke, "The campaign in Bohemia, 1866", and Anderson, "The Austro-Prussian War in Bohemia, 1866". The latter describes Stosstaktik. Clearly the two descriptions are different. The Austrians attack in battalion columns and the Saxons in company columns with skirmishers.

===

BBB and BBEB can be obtained from Caliver Books or Irregular Miniatures in the UK, or Brigade Games or On Military Matters in the US.

Hope this helps.
Chris

Hi Chris,
Very helpful. To add a bit more granularity, your description of Saxon columns agrees with the description in their official history, which talks of company or, on one occasion half battalion, columns, very much like the Prussians. With four companies in a battalion, that equates to some 200-240 men or 400-500 men.  The Austrians, where they stuck to their own doctrine(!) were going for attack in "division mass". A battalion had three of these, as they had six companies per battalion. But the three divisions often attacked in a closed line, making it practically a battalion column in four double ranks.   A real battalion column, which was the recommended formation for the second, supporting, line of a brigade, was all six companies, one behind the other, so six double ranks, or twelve men deep. This seems to have been used for the assault as well. I have now checked my sources on Langensalza, including Lettow-Vorbeck, and I can find nothing of the level of detail we are looking for.  Does anyone know if Mike Embree's booklet on The Hanoverian army addresses tactics.  I would agree with Cameronian's warning not to take Mike Bennighof's stuff as in any way gospel.

Mollinary

[paulr]

I would agree with Cameronian's ...

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Naughty.
We agree more than we disagree, I'm jealous really, Mollers has taken early retirement so can devote his time and capacious brain to the study in depth my demanding work schedule doesn't permit. I have considerable respect for his scholarship, a good egg really ... mostly ...  

later: whoopee my French have arrived from Fernando; elected to have the cavalry and Guard done to 'collector' standard, wow, now for basing, flocking and hopefully some piccies before Christmas.

[Leman]

Looking forward to seeing those. Very near to completing my French 6mm for BBB. Photos in a week or two.

[cameronian]

Wrong thing to say on a 10mm board but in retrospect I wish I'd gone for 6mm at the start.

[Leman]

Got 10mm as well, but I think BBB will work better in 6mm. These 6mm are mostly over 20 years old. My 10mm will be based differently and fighting the smaller scale actions like Wissembourg and Langensalza.

[paulr]

Naughty.

But in the best possible taste