Rules for Mongols ?

[Shedman]

I should warn you that Battles For Empire is a set of 19th Century Colonial rules

I just happen to use them for Ancients

[Albie Bach]

I should warn you that Battles For Empire is a set of 19th Century Colonial rules
I just happen to use them for Ancients

Noted. As it happens I had a scan of them last week and did wonder about that.
Thanks for the warning anyway. 

[Sandinista]

I plan to use Pike and Shotte, have used them for 16th century Turk v Persian and they give a good game

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hello Albie Bach

I'd also recommend Iron Bow (I'm a big fan of the Perfect Captain) and there is a new campaign system, Princes of the East II, coming out which will include the Mongols.

Also, although I haven't seen them, if you are a fan of Chris Peers' wargame rules there is Empires of the Steppes http://www.spiritgames.co.uk/single.php?menu=3&sub=19&tagno=7504&game=11424



Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Albie Bach]

Thanks for those. I'll update my list to look at.

[marie]

Thanks for the rules tips...

[FierceKitty]

The new figures look super, but I have to say I have always found light-cavalry specialist armies rather dull to use on the table. Effective, if the table's big enough, but dull. I've done Parthians, Scythians, Magyars, Palmyrenes, Huns, Mongols, Sioux, and Hsiung-Nu in my time, so I have honestly tried.

Oh, and Numidians.

[Subedai]

I've just read the first of a series of articles in the latest Miniature Wargames magazine about the Mongol conquests and was wondering what rulebooks do you think would be good for the new Mongol range?
I've had a look through various topics about the Mongols and can't find anything about it.

Cheers, Colin

First off, a disclaimer. I have not used or read most of the modern post-DBM sets (Ptcha! Ptcha!) of rules that include Mongols but I'm sure that a fair amount of what I have written below is still applicable.

I have been fascinated by the Mongols which is one of the reasons I wrote those articles -hopefully to show others just how incredible their conquests were- and have found there are a number of things that the Mongols did which either have not -or cannot- be translated into a wargames set of rules that cover centuries of warfare rather than an 'in-period' set.
   1. The Mongol C & C system under Chinggis Khan was streets ahead of nearly everybody else -especially the Europeans- and reflecting this in a set of rules almost makes the game unplayable. It is also extremely difficult to portray three of history's greatest commanders Chinggis Khan himself, Subedai Bahadur and Muqali on a wargames table in the same army.
   2. I have yet to come across a set of rules that allows all the tricks the Mongols used, mainly because they were mostly strategic rather than tactical and the table simply isn't big enough. By this I refer to the nine day retreat before the Khalka River against the Russians/Cumans and the multi-pronged attack against the Russians at the River Sit.
   3. Speed. The Mongols nearly always chose the terrain to fight over because they could outmaneuver their enemies and with patrols out as far as one hundred miles all round it was difficult to catch them napping.       
   4. Wargamers are all-seeing gods of the battlefield and unless hidden movement is part of the rules they will always be able to see where the next Mongol ambush is coming from.
   5. The Mongol re-mount system has yet to be covered in a set of rules and as an adjunct, any detriment for riding blown horses.
   6. The huge psychological advantage of believing you are the chosen people to rule the whole world. How do you incorporate that?

If there is a set out there that covers everything above then bite the traders hand off buying them, otherwise the only real answer is, in a nutshell, try writing your own.

[FierceKitty]

I have to say there's little here that isn't as true of very many other periods, theatres, and armies.

[sakura]

i have empires of the steppes
seem good
history is reasonably accurate
i am getting rid of them aqs not pursuing the mongols

[Subedai]

I have to say there's little here that isn't as true of very many other periods, theatres, and armies.

If we were talking generally then I would agree with you, but as we are only talking about the Mongols in this thread, at that particular time in history I think what I have written in my last post is still relevant.

[Albie Bach]

First off, a disclaimer. I have not used or read most of the modern post-DBM sets (Ptcha! Ptcha!) of rules that include Mongols but I'm sure that a fair amount of what I have written below is still applicable.

I have been fascinated by the Mongols which is one of the reasons I wrote those articles -hopefully to show others just how incredible their conquests were- and have found there are a number of things that the Mongols did which either have not -or cannot- be translated into a wargames set of rules that cover centuries of warfare rather than an 'in-period' set.
   1. The Mongol C & C system under Chinggis Khan was streets ahead of nearly everybody else -especially the Europeans- and reflecting this in a set of rules almost makes the game unplayable. It is also extremely difficult to portray three of history's greatest commanders Chinggis Khan himself, Subedai Bahadur and Muqali on a wargames table in the same army.
   2. I have yet to come across a set of rules that allows all the tricks the Mongols used, mainly because they were mostly strategic rather than tactical and the table simply isn't big enough. By this I refer to the nine day retreat before the Khalka River against the Russians/Cumans and the multi-pronged attack against the Russians at the River Sit.
   3. Speed. The Mongols nearly always chose the terrain to fight over because they could outmaneuver their enemies and with patrols out as far as one hundred miles all round it was difficult to catch them napping.       
   4. Wargamers are all-seeing gods of the battlefield and unless hidden movement is part of the rules they will always be able to see where the next Mongol ambush is coming from.
   5. The Mongol re-mount system has yet to be covered in a set of rules and as an adjunct, any detriment for riding blown horses.
   6. The huge psychological advantage of believing you are the chosen people to rule the whole world. How do you incorporate that?

If there is a set out there that covers everything above then bite the traders hand off buying them, otherwise the only real answer is, in a nutshell, try writing your own.

I hadn't realised you had written the articles. They were great & I saw the Editor's Note at the end of the third one that there are more to come. 

You have highlighted exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I asked the question about rules. I've had a quick flick through Ironbow & if I go ahead I think that'll be my first choice but I need to look at it more closely.

I entered the MW competition to try to win the Pendraken Mongol range goodies. I got a mention as a runner-up but no banana. Once I've made an inroad into the 4 for 3 Army Packs I got in the January sale I'll have another look at it.

[steamingdave]

I have used Basic Impetus ( Mongols v Russian medieval). Can be played in small space. My major reservation is that Light Cavalry are not much use in Basic Impetus, really only skirmish at long range and can get outshot by foot bows.Having said that, my Heavy Cavalry did the business pretty successfully as they were able to work a flank whilst the LC occupied main body of RussiansI think the full Impetus set gives a bit more flexibility to LC, so may be worth a look.

[Subedai]

I hadn't realised you had written the articles. They were great & I saw the Editor's Note at the end of the third one that there are more to come. 

You have highlighted exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I asked the question about rules. I've had a quick flick through Ironbow & if I go ahead I think that'll be my first choice but I need to look at it more closely.

I entered the MW competition to try to win the Pendraken Mongol range goodies. I got a mention as a runner-up but no banana. Once I've made an inroad into the 4 for 3 Army Packs I got in the January sale I'll have another look at it.

Thanks. Yes, there are another three that cover the Russian and European Campaigns.

[fred.]

Subedei I too really enjoyed the Mongol articles in MW

It would be great if the next set are published too.

Rules that make good use of light cavalry are hard to find. Hail Caesar has some good elements, especially the evade, and that skirmishes act in a blob with no flanks. In fact these can make them a bit too good - and the LC spend the game peppering the enemy and running away - which is perhaps historical, but gets a bit tedious for the player on the receiving end.